#1reasonwhy

The point in the article though was that there should be more conditions where the characters don't want to date you based on your character's background, and on a paragon-type route, you'd presumably be a Shep more open to cooperating with other species and lay the smackdown on suboordinates acting like species-ist assholes. That challenges Ashley's world view (even though she kinda grows out of it by 3), and in my mind is equivalent to Ashley being a Republican and Shepard being a Democrat and Ashley deciding she'd rather date someone from the Tea Party than get in bed with Shep. I thought that was what the article was trying to get at, about characters rejecting you based on the main character's background. (Though to my knowledge, no games reject the player's character based on looks except for some Japanese dating sims that have a fashion-based element; but that's less about how the character actually looks and more about, well, fashion.)

It would have been awesome to see one of the ME love interests reject Shep based on the super freaky facial scarring that happens from being a renegade.

Wasn't Love Revo (or whatever it was called) all about the main character trying to lose weight in order to get guys to like her?

I know! That was just me trying to make a stupid joke. :P

Yes. Ugh. I feel mixed about that game. Angie did a great playthrough because she only used exercise and healthy eating (basically, maintaining a healthy lifestyle) in order to achieve the end goal, but the game as a whole sends a pretty terrible message I think. IIRC, there's no character you can end up with if you don't lose weight.

Ah, see, I saw it more as, "If you want to get the girl, then you have to agree with her in lockstep about everything and suppress your own personality and contrary opinions". I really should get around to playing ME2 and ME3 at some point.

It would be kind of fun to see a game where the love interest can end up falling for someone else in the party instead of you (or perhaps lose their feelings for you because of said interest). I recall that being somewhat possible with Baldur's Gate 2, but that game had so many combinations of characters that I really can't recall, nor do I know how far it could actually go.

Some of you brought up some interesting points about this issue in relation to Japanese dating sims, so I started a thread on this topic in the relevant subforum.

To an extent, yeah, you can play that way too. If you're aware of it, it's simple enough to get around that conversation and still play a paragon Shep. Mr. Alligator played true paragon and locked himself out by accident (whups) so maybe the key is to make more "unrelated" conversations key in locking out certain love interests?

I know that the Miranda/Jack conflict and Tali/Legion conflict could potentially lock out one of those characters if your Paragon/Renegade score isn't high enough, but it would be interesting to see more stuff you decide on during missions affect how other characters see you (despite a paragon/renegade score; for example, a paragon character who kills more than, say, five people being controlled by the Thorian locks out someone else who decides they can't be with someone who has such blatant disregard for sentient life, even if that was the only renegade thing Shep ever did).

The thing is, as game players we've managed to compartmentalize cruelty and the traumatic effects that, for instance, violence would have on you when delivered on the scale that many videogames offer as a matter of course. But for many the ultraviolence is what puts together the "feel" of authenticity as balanced with whatever degree of player-service is deemed necessary for the game, as it takes (for instance) the camera on a stick of an FPS and splatters it with guts to create a form of immersion along with the one person army suspension of disbelief.

I don't think love experiences in games are all that different, in that you have the limited toolkits of whatever mechanics are on the table and then the designer cross-references it with what creates the impression of authenticity against whatever they've decided is their audience's preferences, and then again against whatever they feel is appropriate for their story. All of that is placed within the framing of sexism and other starting assumptions for many designers, obviously, but that's not the heart of the matter. Within my limited experience, no one has really come up with ways to use gameplay itself to create a mechanics-based impression of authenticity in relationships, so they take shortcuts. Bioware gives you its usual dialog branches that trigger rewards; dating games oscillate between the romantic, the titillating, the creepily titillating, and the absurd in order to cater to their audiences. Every now and then you have a game that's notably better written than others, but it's not really delivering at the mechanics level the way that other aspects (violence especially) do. So you're going to keep seeing shortcuts that will directly offend at the level of prejudice or sexism or whatever of the designers, but underlying that will be that fundamental inability to deliver something unique and game-like without simply aping what is better attached to other contexts or not much more than a choose your own adventure novel.

To return to what I started with, that compartmentalization that lets terrible things be entertaining is something many readily accept with violence and so on. It's not surprising that similarly problematic assumptions about love can come with the shortcuts and be put away by some, but in the same way that someone with PTSD might not look at Modern Warfare 2 as something quite so easy to swallow, marginalized groups and especially women who have to deal with systemic prejudice daily might have a little easier time seeing past the compartments. But it's not surprising that many don't until it's pointed out to them.

Well, for starters, that isn't how romances work in DA2. You can have opposing views of the world and still make kissy face (as a rival rather than a friend). Sex isn't the End Goal of the relationship, either.

And I also object to the article saying you have to nod politely at Morrigan's bullshit (it also makes me roll my eyes when people say you HAVE to love murder to romance Zevran), because you don't, actually. Yeah, you'll take some rep hits, but none of them are insurmountable and none of them end the romance. If there's a complaint to be made, it's more that you bribe your way into people's beds with presents, but that's more just a clumsy mechanic than a Bold Statement on Relationships (plus you bribe people into just being your friend, too). Sex is also absolutely not the End Game of the relationship in DA:O (although that IS what triggers the achievement, which I'm sure they think was a mistake in retrospect).

ME2, Jack wants you to be nice, not just dumbly nod at whatever crazy shit comes out of her mouth like the article claims. Shit, the biggest issue I had with that romance was that the nice, friendly things to say to her also put you on her romance path (so I wound up on it by accident EVERY TIME I played a DudeShep), and you eventually have to be the biggest douchebag possible to derail it.

Also, as someone who romanced a dude who completely dumped her and moved on mostly offscreen in ME3, that part where it says "let the player get cheated on!" can go fuck itself. It does not feel good, even when it is fictional, and while I am cool with bad shit happening to my characters, that particular part served only to piss me off, rather than emotionally involve me.



Not saying BioWare romances are perfect, but I sure as shit do not play as a Nice Guy in them.

Oh, that does remind me, my Sister-in-law attempted to romance the guy-who-would-be-king. Alistair? Anyway, she was a mage, and so he broke up with her because he was going to be king, and couldn't marry a witch. She was absolutely pissed, and I think she quit playing the game. Dunno if she ever got back to it.

I guess it's safe to say that Bioware romances are evolving and getting better. (judging from the post above about ME2 & 3)

So the authenticity thing is going to be at war with player gratification, even if better mechanics for relationships can be developed. AAA games are still going to look at it as a way to invest people emotionally with skinner boxes full of secrets, sidequests, and outright rewards, and games that focus on it primarily are going to use the shortcuts appropriate to their audiences and flesh them out accordingly.

There's this game called Passage that uses game mechanics to symbolize the nature of marriage. You're wandering through this environment and the goal is to pick up treasures to increase your score, but if you pick up a partner, you become a two-tile unit and you can't reach certain places to get at the treasure anymore. Apparently, there is absolutely no in-game reward at all for being a couple, so what you have (theoretically) is the emotional benefit of not having to walk through this cruel world alone. Or something like that. (I've never been married so I wouldn't know.) It's a crude way to represent how relationships work, of course, but I think that using mechanics to convey authenticity in relationships is definitely an interesting avenue to pursue for game developers.

Haha, yes, there are a lot of ladies who were fucking furious about that. He'll dump you for all sorts of reasons if you make him king, which I actually really liked (although I was obviously upset the first time it happened). It was a great subversion of the "marrying the prince and living ~happily ever after~" thing. Why did I like that but hate the Jacob Dumping? Because with Alistair, it felt absolutely true to his character and the setting. In ME3, it felt way out of character for Jacob to be so thoughtless, and felt like it was stuck in there for no good reason.

I've heard of things like that, but I'm never quite sure if that's trying to solve the same problem. For instance, if we value games with an element of skill, is that something that is going to come into the equation for relationships? Is it randomness or emergent gameplay that we value in this situation? Typically games resolve this by having you do skillful things that translate to rewards or outcomes that get you places in relationships, but there's not much that really constitutes relationship skill itself, and it's unclear to me how desirable that would be anyway. So games like the one you mention create abstractions or metaphors and then have you play the metaphor, but the relationship per se remains outside of the actual gameplay. With Bioware, it centers on the branching dialog, but I'm not sure that's anything but a convention that suited the available technology rather than one that really managed to attach gameplay to relationships in a substantive way.
I tend to lean towards the randomness or emergent aspect of it, but I'm not sure how to make that fair to the player. Sjofn's not the only one who wants to succeed or at least feel in control of decisions, and perhaps that in itself means the mechanics need to take a backseat to improving the writing. At least we know for a fact there's plenty of room there.

It's funny, because from a writing standpoint, it's a great moment. I think if they didn't completely blow the post-game epilogue (basically everyone is like "Alistair who?" and it's just ... really lame.), I might've kept it anyway and just been depressed (in a good way) for a while.

I had that happen to me with my dwarf character :C

Then I sighed deeply and re-played the whole game again to get my happily-ever-after ending. So... at least it gives the game some replay value?

Also I am STILL super pissed at ME3 because my Shep can't adopt Krogan babies with Garrus (I have yet to get the super-mega-best ending or whatever, SO MUCH RAGE). I wasn't even mad about what happend to Shep, or the Reapers, or any of that other stuff. I was mad because Shep and Garrus couldn't be together. I was really emotionally invested in that relationship.

My first DA:O playthrough, I romanced Zevran with my dwarf noble (who was on the rebound off of Gorim dumping her just because he thought she was dead :( ), then I was a human noble who was all AND I'LL RULE WITH HIM, BITCHES when she made her boyfriend King, so I had NO IDEA Alistair could be such a shit until my THIRD playthrough on a city elf, who had just about the most depressing playthrough possible. <3


EDIT: Possibly related: Unless I specifically want a sad playthrough, I pretty much only romance Zevran now. <3

IIRC, aren't the NPC's just generally slummy racist against elves in that game?

I thought that was kinda neat as a universe-building element, and I liked it in Elder Scrolls as well but I do hope it happens to the default (non-Redguard) human-type races at some point.

Yeah, I was debating whether to get the game and then I found out that not only does that happen for male PCs, but for female ones as well. Fuck that.

True, however if you aren't a jerk about it and you actually pick the respectful but not completely agreeing options (basically be Paragon), then she'll eventually tell you that she's rethinking her beliefs about aliens because of your conversations. It's a nice touch, I thought.

Nope. Nope nope nope nope. That'd be complete and utter character assassination. Just look at what happened with Jacob.

Also Garrus and Shepard adopt adorable Krogan babies in my headcanon ending so take that, Bioware. *sniff*

Also, on the subject of the gameplay of romance, here's a really awesome article that I found on the subject. It's written by Emily Short, who is well-known in the free IF community.

Here's an exerpt.

It talks a lot about how to encourage the player to care about the romantic interest from a design perspective, which I find quite fascinating.

To put it mildly. <3 That is the reason elf lady gets dumped by King Alistair. Not that he has an issue with your elfness, he just knows the rest of his kingdom would go LOL NO to an elf queen.


EDIT: Oh, and mark me down as someone else who fucking loathed the opening for the Dragons in TSW.

Side note: I just cannot buy a Shepard-Garrus romantic relationship, at all. Bromance for the ages, sure, but as a love interest it feels just completely unauthentic to me.

No lips.

Jacob, IMO, was already an asshole when he said some racist shit about Garrus >_> (and from what I can tell, he doesn't grow out of it like Ashley did)

I forgot that he found that doctor lady (AND SHE WANTS TO NAME HER KID AFTER SHEP WTF). Again though, that happens in 3 (or between 2 and 3 I guess), which already has enough horrible heart-smashing moments.

If you 'romance' Kelly, doesn't she kinda dump you too in 3?

It kinda starts out that way in 2. There's definitely more, "Hey, we're bros, wanna bang the stress away?" than there is the emotional ooey-gooey things present in other routes. Shep propositions Garrus, and he's shocked by it because he didn't really have those kinds of feelings, but had a huge amount of respect for her and says "ah hell." From there, the kind of "friends with benefits" relationship then morphs into a more romantic one in 3.

At least, that's how I see it.

That was my problem on my FemShep playthrough. I liked Garrus, but OMG dat mandibles. Just horrible images of things getting caught and.. uuugghh.

Fun fact: he gets one of his mandibles caught on Tali's helmet, should Shep not romance either of them.

And yet the Garrus romance gives you the sweetest kiss scene in the game.

Not me. I like it because in ME1 there's no pressure to get on his good side quick so you can start the romance. You're actually allowed to just get to know the guy. For a Bioware game, that's unique for a love interest.

I could (and have) written pages about why I love Garrus as a romance, but I won't derail the thread. Just gonna say that I found him the most loyal, supportive, badass, and funny LI in the ME games. Hell, in any Bioware game. I like that he's there for you through thick and thin, no matter what. There's no Shepard without Vakarian. I find that wonderfully romantic in a way you don't often see in games.

I just think in any kind of "realistic" scenario the physical differences would totally rule out anything of the kind.

Sounds like something you should put on your TUMBLR.

DATS SPECIES-IST

:P Mass Effect's pretty soft sci-fi once you get down to it. If we're allowing for stuff like the Asari, then Turian-Human sex seems kind of a minor stretch.

I'm still in mourning, dammit! *shakes fist in vague direction of Edmonton*

Bioware and I are taking a break.

Walking in on Garrus and Tali was totes one of my favoritest moments in Mass Effect ever.

Heh, Tali's always been my Mass Effect BFF, so when I found out that that could happen I was surprised at first, but then I accepted it. Tali's almost as awesome as Shepard, so I can see why she and Garrus would hit it off if Shepard's with someone else.

My favorite is Garrus, Hubby's favorite is Tali. I nearly lost it when I found out they'd hook up with each other if you didn't choose one as a love interest.

IT IS LIKE WE WERE MEANT TO BE OR SOMETHING.

As this and Nebty's comment highlight, there are some fundamental questions here that have more to do with Mass Effect's soft sci-fi "humans in funny suits" approach to aliens that are only erratically resolved. Speciesism is not the same as racism*, and certainly not so in the cycle of inter-species conflict that is present in the setting and in some of the better sub-stories. Within the giant mess that is the lack of ambition that crops up periodically in Mass Effect right after they've promised you everything (ME2 pro-Cerberus/radical human ending RIP), it's hard for me to get too worked up about the sex stuff. But then again I basically only ever do them out of morbid curiosity and then I immediately regret it and backtrack, since that's one thing ME1 taught me well.

*In a practical sense. Obviously the socially constructed parts are there, but the gift that sci fi sometimes provides you with is what-ifs when the parts are not socially constructed and really important.

I always thought that James was just a "human" version of a Krogan. He even does that occasional "bounce/head-nod/fist-punch" motion that I've seen used for Krogan characters. Between that and his treatment of Shep (Lola? Really? Not Loca?), I found him the most uncomfortable character to try to romance (and have thusly never done his route).

I liked James in a "stupid little brother" sort of way. The sparring scene was fun. Also, he has a route? I was under the impression that he sort of flirts with you but that's it.

I thought he did. OFF TO THE WIKI.

ETA: I was wrong, he doesn't. Though that would have made his one-upmanship conversation with Garrus much more interesting.

Now I don't feel bad never paying him much attention.

My favorite thing with James is basically being all "you gonna back up that flirting, hoss?" and him totally chickening out. He is not man enough for my LadyShepard.

Actually I kinda ship him with Mr. Pilot dude. They're totally flirting all the time!


EDIT: Also I totally thought Tali and Garrus should hook up since the FIRST Mass Effect, so I was fucking delighted as hell they hooked up. <3

You know, it kind of occurs to me that part of the reason I vastly prefer not romancing Garrus is because as a platonic friendship, it is magnificent, and having a male/female friendship in a game like the one my Shepard and Garrus had is very, very rare, because unless you go out of your way to flip that switch (it's a moment that you could miss VERY easily), it never comes up. You never have to shoot him down, you never have to have that awkward moment where he's jealous for no good reason, etc. He's just your bro. Always your bro. FOREVER A BRO.

The other dudes that are never a romance always feel a bit distant (Varrik of DA2 is the only guy I can think of off the top of my head that comes anywhere near Garrus' level of Bro-ness), and the ones that ARE a romance option almost always need to be told NO THANKS at some point.

Glad I wasn't the only one!

Kaidan in 3 was the only one I got a confession out of by accident. I had NO IDEA it was coming, and I felt kinda bad shooting him down. I used to prefer having Ashley around over him, but ever since re-playing 1 in order to have a continuous Shep to drag all the way to 3, he's kinda grown on me.

Mordin? D:

I mean, he's not quite as high bro-level as Garrus, but I felt that he and Shep were fairly close, especially given their interactions in 3 (and my own personal reaction for the conclusion of that arc... crying for days).

Shep and Wrex also seemed at a similar bro-level in 1, though that relationship kindof dwindled with his not being in the party in 2 and 3. The Shep/Wrex interactions following 1 are still awesome though.

I do feel like, at least after 1 (if you don't romance her) that Liara and Shep are bffs as well. She's a great gal pal.

Garrus is the broest of bros. That's why I can never stomach romancing anyone else. Garrus will always be there, Garrus will always understand. You'll never have to make excuses so you can go out on the town with your buds because your buds are Garrus (and Wrex and Tali for me). He's pretty much the closest you get to anyone in Mass Effect, and none of the other LIs can even come close to comparing. Liara's probably the closest after Garrus (cuz Tali isn't an option for Femsheps ;_;) but she's a bit too clingy and she got weird after she went all darkside. I mean, who else is there? I already mentioned my problems with Thane upthread. Jacob's a dick if you romance him. If you don't, he's tolerable but not exactly a friend. Kaidan is...ehh, not my type. He just didn't "click" with me in the way that Garrus did, probably because he's just not all that funny without Ash around to take the piss out of him.