There's also goddamn plenty of them to hire, just not ones that are shrinking violets who won't call you on your shit when you're being a sexist pig.
Gal. Gabrielle Toledano. (not getting the 'not enough to hire' thing, though. There must be some critical mass of dozens to choose from when you have a position or two to fill, or what?) edit: hm, from the article itself reeeally. Kinda have to wonder if that unability has anything to do with the company she is working for.
I'm no expert but.. Wait, in this case, I actually sort of am! Very simple solution to finding more women for your video game company: offer more pay. Alternatively make your workplace especially attractive to women candidates.
Offering more pay might entice more women to start working, but it won't keep them working for you in a misogynistic environment.
My reply was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Obviously the level of compensation required to put up with the bullshit women are subjected to in much of the game industry is potentially nuts. The reason these companies can't find female job candidates is because they're shit holes at which no self-respecting woman would take a job at the proffered wage scale.
This is starting to get a bit strange. When a woman, who by all means is an expert in her field, writes perfectly reasonable observations like not having enough women educated in engineering, we attack EA as a shitty workplace or call her a liar? Yes, it is a chicken and an egg problem. But in my opinion, forcing a cultural change rarely succeeds. I think one of the first steps really is to just get more women into the industry, and a cultural shift will follow. Obviously workplaces should not be misogynistic or otherwise hostile towards women, that goes without saying. But those women will not be hired if they don't exist or apply in the first place. There's no way around it. And we all know, that there are less women pursuing careers in science, math and engineering. Therefore it makes perfect sense that there should be an effort for encouraging women to get educated in those fields. She said nothing wrong. Don't be assholes. For the record, I work at DICE (which is an EA studio).
To be fair, whenever I advertise a position on my team, I never get CVs from women and in all of the time that I've been a network engineer (about 15 years now) I've worked directly with no more than four female engineers. Women clearly aren't attracted to the field for some reason; it could very well be that there's a perception amongst women that the technical expertises in telecomms are a boys' club - I don't know. I do know that the women I've worked with have remained in the industry, even after they've left our company, so there's that.
A boys club is one part, the fight to have a family at some point (if we want it) is another. Then there is the very real and annoys me to no end fact that there are just as many men out there who will NOT talk to you if you happen to have a job that makes them feel dumb. I lost two men in my life previously to this syndrome and it was only because I happen to like to figure out "Why". I don't know if it is worse , or if the internet community + get me a sammich crowd has made it so. It just feels worse from my perspective , and it was already rough to think and be female as it was. We can go into my ability to think some other time, suffice that I do try to do so.
In addition to what's been mentioned, there's also still a "girls just aren't good at math or science, why don't you teach or do marketing or something, honey?" thing going. It's getting better, but still exists.
Didn't say it was true. Just that girls are told that (possibly not there, I'm speaking as an Amurican). EDIT: As an example, although a slightly outdated one given this was quite some time ago. I have two sisters and a brother. All four of us had the same geometry teacher. The only one of us she encouraged and/or sent on to honors algebra 2 without a fight was my brother. One of my sisters, who eventually went on to be a fucking mechanical engineer, was told, "I just can't bring myself to do it," when she went to get this bitch to sign off on her schedule for the next year. My sisters (and myself) were not bad at math. My brother wasn't either! But that teacher clearly thought my brother was better at it by virtue of his penis. It wasn't the only example I encountered in school, but it was the most vivid for sure. My other sister, by the way, is a chemist. ;) My brother and I went on to study music (although I dropped out and went into STAGEHANDIN'.).
Perhaps worse, not explicitly told that - any more, that is - instead, they perceive it through the gender roles that suffuse our society. This is what makes it chicken-and-egg: we need to promote women in technology (last time I said that, someone thought I meant "give a pay rise to" instead of "show that they are a part of") but we don't have women in technology to promote because we need to promote women in technology ... I'm beginning to think it can only start with positive, discriminatory, encouragement at a reasonably early age. Boys have plenty of cues from society, but I think we need to actually tell girls it's worth considering mathematics as a study choice.
My mother, when she was still teaching biology (she retired last year), headed a club to encourage girls to go on to study science and engineering in college. She'd occasionally get flack for being "sexist" against boys. :P
I have struggled a bit with this in the past, and I'm still not fully reconciled. My fundamental principle is one of egality, which I note from Chrome's helpful red squiggle is some kind of exotic and alien concept, so "girls club for science" stabs at me two ways: one is the obvious "no boys" thing that triggers the sexism accusation as you note, and the other is segregation; I don't think you're truly equal if you're separate. Incidentally, people involved in education have mentioned to me that controlling a mixed class (in the sense of trying to get equal opportunity for all students) is harder than it is for gender-segregated schooling. So this is one of those areas where I'm somewhat conflicted. I believe we should have better social integration if girls and boys generally do more things together, but I have no evidence for this other than my ideals so I'm open to being persuaded.
I am not a huge fan of girls-only stuff - and my mother never actually refused to let a boy join the club, by the way - but I know there have been studies where girls do better in girls-only classes, one of the reasons being because it helps keep the teacher's biases in check. If a teacher is already inclined to think the boys are more worth encouraging, and boys are socialized to demand attention - good or bad - the girls kinda get ignored and left behind somewhat. It's not a great solution, but it really is nice having an environment where, instead of worrying about what the ~boys~ think (because guys hate nerd girls, you know) or being the Only Girl in AP chemistry, you get to just focus on what your interest is. And it's not like these girls and boys didn't have to deal with each other everywhere else already, including their actual science classes. It's also something I think would fade away as the necessity lessens.
I think the shitty workplace reputation is a fair point, which is why the conclusion she makes how there is just not enough yet women to hire as opposed to say, perhaps not so many of them willing to work in the shitty workplace... can be seen questionable as far as perfectly reasonable observations go.
Getting resumes submitted to you for an open position is the final step in a very, very long chain of events.
Ayup. My brief interest in working in the video game industry was quashed well before it ever hit the level of sending CVs out to companies. From the programming class with only one other woman in it (we huddled next to each other in the back to avoid the creepier classmates) to the video games coming out that made it clear they didn't want input from women--who clearly weren't their target demographic, either--to the conversations online which showed how hostile the fans would be any hint of Girl Cooties... No, that interest was stomped on a loooooong time before I even heard about sexist work environments.
I hate to say this, but no, I don't think it is a fair point. As established above, I think we can see beyond EA and observe that generally there tends to be less women in engineering careers than men. And she was speaking of ways to change that. It had really nothing to do with EA. I guess you could argue that she somehow doesn't see the "real" situation in the industry and observes it only from the limited vantage point of EA, which, frankly, would be a silly notion. The other alternative is that you think she is lying.
Anecdotal, of course, but the last two programmers we hired were women, and the team was a 50/50 split for a while (though in enterprise software, not gaming). One of them went on maternity leave for a year, and at the end decided not to return and become a full-time mother instead. No hard feeling from the rest of the team, we were happy for her and her family, but I do wonder if it winds up having some effect on the hiring manager's decisions in the next round of interviews. It's not like it made her any more 'unreliable' than another male coworker who quit to move to another city to better take care of his mother, but how do you shake the subtle gender association in your subconscious?
Really, you don't think the public perception of EA reputation (so to speak) is a fair point to raise in discussion about reasons said company is unable to find "enough" of willing workforce? Do you believe this reputation (on top of how the gaming industry is viewed like in general) has no impact whatsoever when the potential candidates decide where to send their resumes? What i'm arguing is that the conclusion how "it's just the way things are" from that article comes across a bit like an act of sticking head in the sand, a little too quick to 'see beyond' and tell oneself "it really has nothing to do with us". That impression is not helped by how the suggested ways to change the situation similarly brush over exactly why things may be the way they currently are, and don't include making any actual effort to change that, beyond putting the responsibility on the women themselves. And telling them to "cast aside the preconceptions because if you don't want to work in sexist environment --although that sexism is actually true rather than preconception and oh, how unfortunate is that-- but really, if you pass on it you are missing out!"
The problem is that it is not a point. It's merely an anecdotal observation that does not really connect with the original column. She is trying to make a point, which I feel you are missing. Read: "In our industry and the technology world at large, we need to support educational institutions that are working so aggressively to encourage women to pursue STEM careers. The work of Harvey Mudd College President Maria Klawe comes to mind as an example of the type of work to aspire to. The longevity of our industry and the infusion of new and diverse ideas that appeal to ALL consumers depend on getting more women into engineering, math, design and other STEM-related disciplines."
In what manner exactly is EA getting the dubious honour of being perceived as "the worst company in America" by something like 2/3rd of 250k voters an anecdotal observation? What would it take for it to stop being anecdotal? I did see it; but that's actually why it reads to me as largely ignoring the issue. I don't think just increasing the number of potential candidates is going to automagically attract these candidates to the workplace that treats them like shit, when they can just as well apply instead to more sane and civilized places. And she doesn't show any willingness to address this part of the problem. Because telling women that yes, the gaming industry is sexist but it's on them to maybe, eventually, x years down the road change that feels hardly like it, or like the sort of encouragement/incentive she says is needed. Or to put it differently, imo what she doesn't say speaks more than what she does.
This is going nowhere. So, to conclude your point: She believes that more women in engineering might change the cultural landscape. You disagree. And you feel like she does not care or do anything against sexism in workplaces, which is mindblowing to me, and makes me just feel like this discussion can't go further. Let's agree to disagree.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this - it seems straightforward enough (to me, in my industry - the games industry is clearly different and apparently has more ingrained cultural problems).
While doing some housecleaning, I thought about this a bit more: I feel the discussion needs to move from being problem-oriented towards solution-oriented. We all acknowledge that there is a problem, and we agree also what is causing it. However, complex problems tend to have complex solutions. And we get nowhere if we get stuck in a blame game or just repeating what the problems are. The next phase should be about how to tackle these issues, a discussion of solutions. And I do believe that this is something where everybody, both women and men, need to come together and figure it out. It's about getting mature and serious about it. If someone raises a point that makes sense and can be seen as addressing some aspects of the issue, that's a positive thing. Let's focus on that. Gabrielle's proposal of getting more women educated into the industry makes sense to me, and I can't possibly see anything wrong with that. If we look at the raw talent pool of people in the gaming industry, and imagine that half of it would be women, there would be for instance way more start-ups formed by women as well. And that would have a strong impact on how the culture of this industry would evolve in the future. It is a long term thing of course, but I think a healthy direction to pursue. But other things need to happen as well. The industry has to become more appealing to women. Therefore men in this culture need to pursue ways to change it directly in their workplaces as well, through education, example and having an impact to hiring practices. I'm sure many men dismiss the problems and do not even acknowledge that they exist. While some are openly misogynistic, others are simply oblivious. Hopefully this uproar (with a lack of a better word) will shake these people awake, and make them realize that we all can do better, and that we all can actually have a very direct and real impact on our work environment and make it more comfortable for everyone, both women and men.
I believe the "very, very long chain of events" includes women being allowed to study the courses that lead into STEM education courses, then be accepted into those courses and not driven out by their mostly male course mates, then manage to find an entry level job etc. etc. that leads to the point where they are applying for the kind of mid-level and upper-level jobs that see them recognised in the industry. It's hard to think that women will stay in university-level video game courses if, at that stage, they are being discriminated against by maybe some lecturers and the people they are meant to be completing team projects with. Which means no women are qualified for video game positions later on. Having read the article, I don't really see much to actually attract women to video gaming mentioned, other than "the sky is the limit" when it comes to career opportunities. Gee, thanks senior EA executive - how many people were fired from your studios in 2012? I could also point out that if "you can’t [innovate] if your team all looks and acts and thinks the same", then why are you looking for women engineers / STEM quals? Why not women from other fields who would bring in unique experiences and viewpoints? Or are you just looking for more codemonkeys and know that women are paid less than men, so would be an attractive group to hire? (Sorry, that's a bit mean, but if the point is to get someone who thinks differently, then why hire people with exactly the same qualifications?) Lots of very broad statements in that article with no evidence to back it up.
I've been waiting a long time for enough voices to join in. Unlike the chapter "Vox Populi" in V for Vendetta, revolutions don't happen with a single incident - riots do. Without a background of social unrest, it becomes an easily-forgotten incident. Overturning a status quo takes a persistent, continual effort slowly building up into a popular consensus over years. These sorts of discussions amongst like-minded peers often feel like isolated communities unable to get a message out to the world at large - or sometimes falling into the 'echo chamber' trap of thinking that now everyone is agreed, the problem is solved. The representation and treatment of women in the video game industry is a problem at the crux of a number of societal mores that combine in a particularly unfavourable way, and we need to shift those pressures from without the industry or our efforts will simply collapse. By which I mean, of course, that we should always strive for change but until things like the press surrounding video games changes, our efforts are likely to be limited in effectiveness. I'm in a particularly awkward position at work, annoyingly. I want to tell our sales and marketing team that it's important to me and the future of our industry that we need to ensure we are targeting open demographics. Age, wealth, interests, sure - but not gender. However, we are working within the bounds of a specific third-party IP, and we inherit both the demographics of the consumption of that IP and their marketing as well. Our business depends on the success of this title, as much as the others we have on the go. Fortunately for my sanity I can persuade myself that I am a very small cog in this larger machine and I am making all the noise I can be expected to make. I think my work colleagues know where I stand. But I think it illustrates the wider scope of the problem.
That mod is the worst. It was initially just meant to be a graphical upgrade, adding higher resolution textures to various objects. With each incremental update, however, it's become clear that the author is a sexist moron. Also, most of the things he adds are fucking ugly. Submitted for your approval, a single screenshot from the latest version:
Something to consider - something that I believe is being overlooked, here - is how the 'hardcore gaming' crowd frequently reacts to the presence of women in their midst. A few links for your perusal - and when looking at these, bear in mind: these are not isolated incidents. These are not incredibly rare events. This is why you don't go alone to the gaming floor of a convention. This is why you shut your microphone off, so the guys you're playing Call of Duty with don't hear your voice. This is why you pick a male avatar, or choose to hide your gender. This is the background radiation of being a female gamer. In fact, I'll go broader than that - this is the background radiation of being a female geek, particularly one on the internet. http://metroidpolitan.com/blog/2013...ssment-in-nerd-spaces-and-encouraging-honesty http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ http://www.explodedsoda.com/2012/09/boundaries-and-penis-incident.html http://skepchick.org/2011/09/mom-dont-read-this/ This shit is everywhere. This is all the time. Every single goddamned day, there's something new to be appalled by. Geekdom is infected with a strain of pernicious misogyny that runs from the bottom to the very top, from the boob physics of Soul Calibur to the harassment of 'fake geek girls' to the groping and assaulting of women at cons. It's fucking omnipresent, and every bit of it says, over and over and over again: "You're not wanted. This isn't for you. You're not welcome here. We don't respect you. Tits or GTFO." After reading through these, you tell me - does choosing to devote your time, energy, love and talent into the gaming field - into the geek world in general - still seem so incredibly attractive? And even if it does - is it still so puzzling to you why so many women decide otherwise?
So a day ago I log into wow, in a channel we keep on our server pg13 and encourage other like minded folk to find each other for rp. I come across someone who I know rather well giving the sammich and you know what your worth arguments to someone they don't like. When I indicated I would find them and teach them how to taste their intestines if they didn't cut that shit out, I got told that it was just to annoy that one person. Who was actually a man and their rp is horrid so they want to drive this person away. I concluded with explaining to said individual this is exactly what we do not do, both for the whole rp community thing, but also it doesn't matter if the person is male,female or some sort of sexual gender we have no word for yet.. we do not imply female = domestic servant if we want to remain a civilized person. After some consideration , even going so far as that their significant other was laughing at it, I pushed my point and apology was given. Unfortunately the apology was to me and not the person getting harangued but at least the nonsense stopped dead when I spoke up. It is one of the few places where I have enough social pressure to kick others in the hiney and enact change. I don't know what to do, it is so pervasive and the logic is now that it seems to be this huge joke. It is like telling racial jokes now, what the hell is wrong with us?
Ryslin , you're doing the right things by making a fuss. Even if you haven't been directly persuasive (and frequently you're not likely to be) you have raised awareness, encouraged people to think a little before they speak, and imposed a social cost for this kind of speech.
If you want to use traditional hiring - "recruiter finds me some resumes with X education and Y years of directly relevant experience" - than yeah, even the few who have managed to make it through the gauntlet will be eliminated by a standard hiring screen. From what I get game development in general is a creative labor of love with terrible hourly pay at this point. The labor standards and pay are atrocrious compared to similar-skill jobs.
Is anyone else disturbed by how often comments on Imgur run along the lines of "I'd wife her" whenever an attractive woman pops up?
