I don't visit imgur that often, but I have heard that phrase being used elsewhere. Yeah it bugs me. It also bugs me that it would have to be commented on that you would -insert whatever innuendo you desire- a woman , instead of you know saying. Hey she is nice looking. Why must anyone be informed of your raging hardon (in general and not aimed at anyone.). Maybe I am becoming crusty and old already.
The weirdest and creepiest ones are when it's otherwise kind and seemingly gentle people who have some sort of Pavlovian reaction to a picture of an attractive woman and trot out lines like they're a jock on his 6th vodka shot.
I would be so emotionally supportive of that woman. Hold her hand, real gentle, and ask about her day. Then just listen.
I apologize. I had to Delurk to post on this. This slightly bothered me on the No Flat Girls post. Why didn't the girl stand up for herself? She is no less guilty then the men she was blaming.
She was angry at them for not defending her. I think they should have said something. But so should have she.
Okay, before I rush to judgment, what post are you specifically referring to? Now then... How is she guilty? Have you ever been in the midst of a crowd under attack with nobody standing up for you? Turns out most people are silent in that situation, and moreover, how is any of it her fault? She's being attacked. Someone else is attacking her. She isn't attacking herself. It's the classic problem with any bullying, the victim usually ends up being silent about the situation to try and minimize the impact as response often just escalates the situation, and unless someone intervenes it continues that way.
Exactly. We claim we would do different if we ourselves were in that situation. But how many actually would? Yes, people should stand up. But she wasn't informing the man he was a toolbag either.
Perhaps some people - especially dudes - do not understand how dudes have the power to defuse a situation like that with a single, well-placed, "Dude!" However, when you are not a dude, and are, indeed, the only woman in the room, when you try to drop a well-placed "Dude!", especially when it's a guy you're not really friends with who has a bunch of dudes laughing it up with him while your friends sit there in horrified silence, it tends to escalate. EDIT: Also, one of the horrified quiet dudes was nominally in charge of the little get together, which kinda puts it on him to yank people's leashes when they are making a space feel less friendly.
Again, what post (seriously, please link it for context), and how is this her fault that he was being a toolbag? Nobody stood up, and she was, I presume, trying to minimize the impact by not drawing attention and waiting for it to blow over, about like any time some idiot on XBL starts with the misogynist dumbassery. Someone else really should have stood up, but they may have been afraid to become the next bullying target, but as Sjofn said, a single "Dude" met with a shake of a head is powerful.
this post right here? It is reaaaaaally ignorant and stupid. Not to say that YOU are (yet) but the post is. Now if you're actually interested in figuring out why (and you should. I used to think similarly ignorant and stupid things), stick around and ask. Alternatively, if your sense of self-importance is greater than your interest in learning, please just say so now so I can just get started on the business of hating your guts.
And because I am a giver, here you go, Zeke: http://teamvalkyrieftw.tumblr.com/post/11399537687/no-flat-girls-how-allies-are-born-guest-post
I have been the only girl in the room. I stood up for myself. I am just curious why she blamed the men so much? If another female had been in the room would she have been angry that she didn't stand up either? Or is it just a double standard?
Okay, now that I've read that... Skelly? Dude. Come on. It's great (sincerely) that you were able to stand up in a situation like that. Most people don't, and can't, and just want that kind of thing to end, or don't trust themselves to maintain a cool after opening up. It's pretty damn understandable why she would leave rather than make herself a bigger target, and really shitty that her friend didn't stand up; hopefully he learned from his mistake and doesn't let that happen again. More importantly, it should have never happened. The idiot in the front shouldn't have said what he did, the rest of the class/lab/gathering shouldn't have encouraged it, and the teacher, were on present, should have shut him the fuck up. Plenty of people were wrong, and none of them are the victim in the situation. In summary,
I have been the only woman in the room too, of course. And sometimes it's really fucking hard to stand up for yourself. You have to do that mental calculus, the "OK, if I say something, will that make it worse?" And in her situation, I do not blame her in the least for coming to the conclusion, "It absolutely would, especially since my friends being silent is giving implicit approval to this cockbag." When you're the actual target, "standing up for yourself" will often not help. It will make shit worse. Doesn't mean you shouldn't, but if you have friends there who are NOT the target, who are NOT going to give the harasser the natural mental defense of "well, of course it bothers HER," yeah. They should say something. Ideally, they should say it first. Because it will have more clout, and take the focus off of the person being harassed.
I get the "women should speak up, it's their responsibility as well" schtick you're going for here, but when you're actually the one being harassed (and let's not pretend that being the only woman present at such a conversation isn't harasment) it's really not that simple. You expect the person who organized the whole thing to say something. You expect the people you know to stand up for you, because they will know that you can't. You expect that from the other men present who aren't total dickbags.
Well, that goes back to my thinking that a lot of people do not realize their well-placed "Dude!" goes a long way. Because it does. And honestly, from their reactions in the aftermath, they did know. But they stayed quiet anyway. EDIT: That was at Skelly, LIZZY U NINJA
That's true, and it's understandable, but still shitty. It could be part of the bystander effect, but considering the friend in question organized the event, he had serious responsibility to say something when the situation turned hostile. But as a general rule, when someone's getting pissed on, you open up your umbrella for them. Especially a friend, because it turns out as soon as someone isn't alone, the dynamics change, and more often than not more people follow that lead. And if they didn't and he was accused of white knighting and the usual "Whatever you just wanna fuck her" replies come out, he did the right thing and can tell those people to get the fuck out, or just take the decent people out of the room.
But I like this reason why movement. Complete equality should be encouraged. NO ONE should be treated badly for differences.
Always one step ahead! Since we're talking about anecdotal stuff anyway, I'm going to give some anecdotal evidence of my own (so Skelly will get why exactly this pisses me off, and also because the other 'sexism' thread reminded me). I've been in these kind of situations before, and let me tell you, when you're the 'target' (meaning, female present at this sort of discussion) it's not so easy to tell a bunch of guys to back the fuck off. When you do, you're a feminazi. You feel backed in a corner and you expect help from the people you care about, and they definitely know that you want them to. It's easier for them because their entire gender isn't the subject of the most vile discussion. And when friends of mine are in these situations I have spoken up. It's easier to stand up for my friends than to stand up for myself. Edit: Wow, this time I got beaten to the punch. I think my point still stands. Sometimes I stood up for myself, sometimes not. It's not so easy for some people.
Skelly, I don't know you or anything about you. But you *might* appreciate reading this article. It's about how a lot of the times, not thinking carefully about these things can lead to some ideas that while seeming innocuous can end up hurting other people. Again, I don't know you so don't know if you actually think like this or not, so don't take it personally. It's just a cool article that helped me see how easy it is to be well-meaningly inconsiderate (shut up, it IS a word). http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/07/13/i-was-a-teenage-sexist/
Well, they have some blame too. LOTS of people have blame here, but the key point is you were placing blame on her too, when she was effectively the one being harassed here by virtue of gender, and if she'd stood up she'd immediately become, as Lizzy put it, the feminazi. Shit, I'm a guy, stout, hairy, bearded, and I've been called a feminazi for standing up before or for where I work. That's just for being in the periphery of a situation, not being part of the actual group being targeted. Being in the middle of it? That's fucking hard. Also, shit got much less real than expected. This is good.
Yeah. When you're in a position of authority, it's your responsibility to control the situation. The people there, particularly if they are your friends, expect you to control the situation. She may have said something if she didn't know anyone, but she was expecting support from her friends with authority that never came. She had a right to be pissed; they could have (and should have) ended that whole situation quickly and easily.
I apologize for pissing you off with my question. I was genuinely curious as to why it was felt that her friends were so much to blame.
Nah, this isn't us being pissed off, this is dismayed and disappointed with reasonable attempts to explain because we really do like to assume good faith. Hopefully it all makes more sense at this point. If we were pissed, there would be scrolling pages of image macros, several of us would have posted 5 page screeds, Bill would be letting fly, Angie would be posting gifs of tremendous power, etc. etc. Additionally (on topic), I'd say her friends get extra blame simply because they're her friends, and you really should be able to count on friends to go to bat for you in a situation like that. We're not calling her friends monsters or misogynist assholes, but they fucked up for sure by that metric.
Oh, I never meant she was a feminazi. Nothing of the sort. She only wanted her and her gender to be respected.
Exactly, but that crowd that was being loud and sexist? They probably would have meant it. It is good, though, that her friends got the message later, and uninvited the jackass from the proceedings. Hopefully why is known and everyone gets the idea, and it puts and end to the problem in that situation.
It's not so much that you pissed me off, more that this was already in my head and I took it a little personally, hence the post explaining why I would take that personally. I didn't think you did, but those guys? They sound like they definitely would have.
