Adam B: Awesome! ((hug)) Mark M: In regards to the shame thing, it's mostly the culture. And now I need to go take a shower, now that I had to think about all that. Also, rum. rum helps.
Really, AaronSofaer? Huh. I'm with@Sjofn, I wouldn't have thought that. Maybe because "if you don't wanna fuck a willing woman you must be a fag?"
It is impossible! Because how in the world could that work? ... Is a sentiment I have come across from people I have interacted with and that behaviour doesn't so much disgust me as horrify me. I spoke to someone about it, and they said they had trouble seeing how a woman could rape a man because, well, they had trouble figuring out the mechanics of that. How do you force a guy to physically "get into the mood" and I was just. I don't want to know. I don't care to know. All I know is that it's possible, and fucking dismissing it is a terrible, terrible thing to do, why would you do that, no, seriously, why would you do that?
It starts as "THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE", yes, but when the guy continues to insist that it is, then it turns into "MAN YOU'RE A FAG". Edit: Yeah, basically that.
I don't know what I hate more: The victim blaming or the fact people discredit the fact men can and do, in fact, get raped, let alone by women. ... Actually, I think it's safe to say I just loathe the entire situation and would wish society would fucking do something constructive about the whole fucking thing.
For me, the shame was from feeling stupid for not offering more resistance, and for not being able to identify what it was within a time frame where there could have been legal consequences. I didn't "come out" about it until 8 years later, when I had finally gotten engaged. I've still never even shared any details of my attack, and my family outside of hubby still don't know. Another exacerbating factor was that I knew my attacker, and we shared many mutual friends. By the time I had come to terms with what had happened, it seemed to me that it would come across as petty, vindictive, or I'd be accused of making the whole thing up. It wasn't until my holding it all in had destroyed all those friendships anyway that I was finally able to tell my other friends.
In my case, the guilt came from people making comments that started with "Well, if you hadn't been there" directly after the event. This included family members, police and nurses. You feel guilty because you're given to believing that it was your fault, that you could have avoided it. I shouldn't have been there, I should have fought harder. Some of the shame comes after because they're all talking about it, but they're avoiding talking to you about it and you know that in part, they're blaming you. They look at you differently and the relationship you once had with family members has gone. It's their fault, but you can't help but think that if only it hadn't happened. Another part of the shame was the act itself. All I will say about it was that I was a smart kid and old enough to understand what was happening. I was beaten until I was unconscious and left there to be found later. I was scared, humiliated and even though I knew everyone in the hospital that day was just trying to help, I was terrified of being touched. The shame was really hard to get past. I acted out afterwards, and instead of support and understanding, It resulted in anger and abuse. Things got worse with my family, where it got to the point of me being kicked out of home and not being allowed into the homes of family members, or even being spoken to for some time. As a result, I only have two family members I have a close relationship with now, and that only came about later in life. I suffer with depression that is difficult to deal with at times, because I know that it could be alleviated if only certain people would acknowledge their part in it. The two that do, carry a lot of guilt and feel that all of the blame should fall on them for not doing the right thing in the beginning. Others don't see that they did anything wrong, that it was all my doing. I've admitted my mistakes, but they won't admit to theirs. What happened to me was a fucking horrible experience that none of them can begin to understand. And I don't think they tried to. If they did, they never made that clear to me. The guilt and shame have gone, because I know it's not my fault. It never was, despite how I was made to feel. The fault lies entirely with the person who raped me. But the depression is still there because I still have trouble with the fact that those who were supposed to be there for me, weren't. Right there with you. I've gone through half a dozen just writing the above and I'm looking at a few more. If I were to continue writing about the teenage years, and even adult years, and the lack of self-esteem, self-hatred and inability to trust people that resulted, I'd probably end up passed out with a post that ended withugkafkjkjkjkjkjkjkjkj
The first time I ever got drunk was in college at a big party that one of my guy friends, who had a crush on me, was throwing in order to get me drunk. I didn't think he'd really try anything, but having never been drunk I didn't want to take any chances, so I asked an old ex-boyfriend (my very first boyfriend, actually, where things had never progressed beyond kissing phase) that I was still friends with if he'd go with me and not drink and just make sure I was okay for the night. You can probably guess where this is going, in that I should never invited the ex-boyfriend since I woke up with him on top of me and spent the rest of the night asleep on my bathroom floor. I tried to confront him over IM the next day and got back a "what did you expect would happen?" which made me think it was completely my fault. Of course I woke up to someone having sex with me, I got drunk didn't I? It wasn't until two years later when I saw a poster on a dorm hallway wall about date-rape that said "Getting her drunk is not the same as getting her consent" that it all really hit me that it wasn't my fault. It had never even occurred to me that I should have/could have reported it until that moment.
The fuck? "I've expected you to behave like a civilized human being and especially not to do the exact opposite of what i've asked you" should be first thing to come to his own damn mind the moment he even thought of saying that. Whether or no... what a piece of shit.
The mental gymnastics at work there are just a "She wuz askin' fer it" in a different guise. It's like hey, you coming over to my place and gettin' all drunk (which only sluts do) is no different than wearing a T-shirt with D.T.F. emblazoned on it and a necklace made of condoms. In his mind, consent for sex was implied upon her attendance and by drinking. Well, not really, that was his excuse for being a scumbag.
You know, I really didn't think triggers ment that much. I try to read things with a detached point of view anyway. I am surprised at what the more recent posts dragged out of my subconscious. Next is do I really want to continue remembering these things or should I let it go again. .. As far as blame.. For some reason I was raised with the expectation that any hanky panky wanted or otherwise was entirely my fault because I am the female and thus must be in control of the goods. No one else can protect (ha!) these gates but the owner right? I don't follow that line anymore, but I still hear the litany. It kinda goes hand in hand with the "I have the pussy I make the rules" nonsense, there are no rules when someone else can take it from you. I asked my loon the other day why this all seems much worse , or more apparent lately. His answer was sobering. Women aren't staying at home afraid, so men are doing what they should know better, but have done time out of mind in ways that are also far more visible. Remember the ideal household thing from books and shows? If you live here, and do these things with those people bad things don't happen to you Sally. Remember to wash behind your ears, comb your hair and don't wear short skirts now! Please note I am not trying to point to men as being at fault, this is a cultural thing and it is a very old one. I am not sure exactly where it came from or why it has been around. I can see some logic in protect the baby makers but the rest gets ridiculous over time.
Is it really that hard for people to just not use "bitch" as a casual slur? Asking them not to gets me the stinkeye. *sigh* Whatever, if I have to be That Guy, I'll be That Guy.
Hmmm? I think of "bitch" as the female version of "asshole". Sure, it has slightly worse connotations because our culture hates women, and some of that gets bundled up with the gender-specific derogatory term, but I never thought of "bitch" as terribly gauche. What's your objection to it?
There are a couple of gendered oaths that I have heard uttered with such hatred behind them that I have no doubt about the internals of the person committing them to my ears. One of them, we know as tapir, is now so closely associated with that hatred that I find myself unable to use it (incidentally, a particularly offensive term for a black person is also a term I find it very difficult to use). "Bitch" is the other, but it turns up so commonly without that vicious after-taste that I can still use it. It's hard to come up with equivalent man-hating oaths, because the kinds of behaviour they describe (dickish, for example) are considered positive qualities by significant subsets of the population. I guess, in print, it's harder to sense the emotion behind the oath, so it's treading on dangerous ground to use them anyway. Reminds me of trying to find out which terms for "gay" my gay friends were uncomfortable with, and it basically came down to which ones they'd received the worst abuse through.
Bitch is a weird one for me, it really depends on who is using it and how. Oddly, one of the gay dudes I play D&D with, who is seriously adorable and I heart him, is also the worst offender with using "bitch" in such a way that makes me go frowny. And it's weird, because I use "bitch" all the time, so it's not like the word is AUTO-BAD for me. But sometimes there's just a tone and a context that makes it go bad. Which is a shame, because it is a super satisfying word to say (imo). EDIT: And as someone who is STILL trying to stop using "retarded" casually, I can attest that actually yes, it is that hard to stop using a word you use all the time but never really thought very hard about the baggage attached to it. :P
I'm under impression "douchebag" comes close; never seen it used in a positive sense and the use seems generally limited to men since for women there is well, "bitch".
bitch I can cope with, since folk are going to call each other names being a "female dog" is minimal on my list of crappy things to be called. Call me a cunt and I will find something to cut you with. It is one of the few words that will flip me from closet and civil psycho to all out flaming screaming grabbing sharp objects to experiment with your body parts psycho. Did I mention it pisses me off? .. I think bastard gets used only for men because it feels male, and maybe a small bit because it never mattered if the female was a bastard. Lineage/inheritance so on didn't go to women til recently. Least in historic terms. A woman's heritage was mostly whoever they married in that context as well. Legitimacy was entirely if your husband/father were legitimate.
It definitely mattered for women too. Differently in some regards, but believe me, it wasn't some irrelevant little detail for women. Even quite recently in some parts of the world. (And possibly still now today, in some parts of the world, but I'm only so familiar with the issue.)
I do feel like a hypocrite when it comes to those words. Not because I'm given to using them much - I'm not! - but because the extent to which they offend me varies quite radically depending on context. A man calling a woman a bitch or especially a tapir is like nails on a chalkboard. Much less so in other contexts, but then again I'm not a woman so not in the line of fire, as it were. Tapir gets thrown around a lot in Australasia, often in an apparently positive sense ("he's a good tapir") so I'm often confused about where the line should be drawn. Compare that with "fag" which I can't hear without it sounding indefensible; perhaps there's a double standard there on my part.
I've thought about it and you know what? This may come solely from personal experience but the word I hate the most is cow. Bitch I can deal with, if you call me a cunt to my face I will punch you in yours but cow just hurts me deeply. It's completely about how a woman looks, fat and unfuckable. I dunno, it may be that I'm just self-conscious about how look and not about my behaviour, but if anyone calls me a cow I will never forgive that person.
I had a moment of clarity with Hillary Clinton's presidential run. Since then, I opt out of the word and ask other people not to use it, and certainly so if it's an environment where I decide the tone. The thing is, I don't think bastard or douchebag (of all things!) or anything has the same weight. I think the only slurs of this nature that work effectively (although not nearly in the same way) on the average heterosexual man are derived from feminization and LGBT, and their power comes from precisely that association. And that's the point.
I have found increased mindfulness about epithets pretty inspiring, actually. Since one has to a) look beyond the traditional weapons and b) think before cursing, one is driven to pretty creative lengths.
Exactly, insults that sting are based on social hierarchy and power; we live in a society that is misogynistic, homophobic, and racist, thus all other things being equal, insults based on those things will be worse, because it implies that you are as low on the social hierarchy as group x. In the past, perhaps, bastard had as much power because the stigma of bastardry existed, but part of what it meant would be the equivalent of "your mother is a whore", which again is a gendered insult.
In "bastard" or your "mother is a whore" the loss of status is primarily due to loss of legitimacy in patrilineal society. So while gendered the insult to the mother is secondary. Which is also why I think "bastard" and "your mother is a whore" is primary applied to men, it is the male offspring that is bequethed the status of the father in strictly patrilineal societies, so it is he that stands to lose, or lose the most at least, from these slurs.
I think we've gotten to the bottom of this: the worst insults are those that liken the recipient to someone low on the social totem pole, and who is lower than cows in the Western world? Nobody. This is also why people who don't like police refer to them as "bulls."
The first time I talked to a dog breeder, it was totally weird, because they would use the word bitch for it's actual definition. Totally felt jarring though, as I was too used to it being used for slang. Re Lizzy and Cow. Cows are also not the brightest animal on the block, so yay, it's not just an insult for looks? =) Not that that really helps at all.
No :(. And also, it's comparing women to an animal mostly used for meat consumption, so quite literally saying women are pieces of meat. This insult just keeps giving.
