Ancient Japanese Demon Vampires And The Women Who Love Them - Let's Play Hakuoki!

my first thought was "woh, Tails seems to be stoned here".. then Saito.. "ho my, everyone is high"..
And smoking Hijikata (pun totally intented here)...
sorry I can't help thinking about some trip to the opium den, here ( dammit! that was this, that they had in mind when they told about an afternoon in the pleasures area)

Nice art, but quite weird. Am I really the only one who though first about opium? (not necessary the drug, by the way, the perfume named Opium has this kind of imagery)

Nice to see Yamazaki but this Kondou is just.oO for once I don't agree exactcly with Randissimo. I prefer our chief Teddybear :)

Oh, I agree, I'm disappointed they made Kondou bishōnen instead of the sexy biseinen we had in Hakuoki, but at this point in time, I'm taking whatever I can get that is Kondou. It won't feel the same, though, it really won't.

My oh my... and here I thought the Okita crush couldn't get any worse.

It seems you doubted the Okita fanbase/franchise. i think the artists turned into fangirls and are selling us the results

So, I guess the au school universe Hakuouki video is based on a doujin game (didn't know that before) and I was searching around on tumblr and found an LP by someone.

So which route exactly is she playing?

WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

Not sure if like or not because Hijikata and Heisuke and Kondou looking at me like that is somewhat unnerving.

Considering the fact this game apparently has M rated material... I'd say somewhere between "Nice expression" and "Do not want this, sorry".

I'm still reading through them, but she goes for Hijikata first. The story line and art isn't bad. Chizuru is about as dense as she always is though, sigh.

Hmm if she does Saito's route then I would like to be informed :D No offense to Hijikata but I'm committed to Saito.

No the high school AU is an official thing, but they only ever did a couple of pictures and 4komas of it, plus the video. (which I think was a DVD bonus or something) There have been doujin games and just plain doujishi made based off of it, but the original AU is something the actual creators made. It's pretty common... Black Wolves Saga has an official high school AU, too.

Please do share.

Oooooh, that makes sense.

;D Would this be more to your liking?


Also, here's a manga version of that video. It's all in Chinese, but it has a few pages of stuff that wasn't really included unless I've remembered wrong. Sorry for clogging up the thread ^^'

Yes, Yes it is <3

Hnng!

Oh boy, read Saito's route and the last two pages...

Now I MUST read Hijikata's route, for SCIENCE!

Souji's face!!! Just add a HAT and it could be even more of a rape face than it already is. XD
Souji will become HAT MAN and take over the world!

Okay, technically this is a derail, but I feel a bit silly starting a discussion thread for a game I LPed months ago, and as the topic creator I think I get to decide.

SPOILERS ahoy.

I played Sanosuke Harada's route over the weekend to get some character research done for the current Icewind Dale 2/Hakuoki mashup I'm writing with my wife.

I didn't like it.

I didn't like it because it felt incredibly sexist to me.

If this has already been covered in here, I apologize -- this thread is kind of huge!

I've experienced, in some fashion, five out of the six routes in Hakuoki -- Okita, Kazama/Bad, Tails, Saito, and Harada. I haven't played Hijikata's, so keep that in mind, it could sabotage my entire argument here. I feel like Harada's route is the only one where her gender becomes an issue, where he's involved just because she's a girl, and girls need protecting (because they can't do it for themselves), and he yells at her a few times because of this, because she should be listening to him because she's a girl. There are lines that sat poorly with me as a result of this -- the scene where he says "Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have expected you to figure this out on your own, huh?" struck me far too much as "Because you're a stupid girl who can't do anything for herself." I'm exaggerating the tone there, but not the effect it had on me -- I really did not like that.

On the gender side of things, Hakuchi/Chizuru/Chiyo gets a lot of flak for being a rather useless protagonist, not all of it deserved, and not all of it deserved from me, either. But in every route where she's struggling, it never seems to be because of gender. Saito keeps her at arm's length because she's not a soldier. Hijikata yells at her because she's in the way, and he is incredibly busy AND responsible for the lives and deaths, not because she's a girl. Okita threatens to kill her because that's how he talks to everyone. Her gender's not the reason she gets any shit from anyone, but in Sano's route it's important, but not because Shiranui's saying "She's a worthless girl, she can't do anything!" until she guts him like a sexist pig, it's Sano saying "You're a girl, I have to protect you, I protect girls" and she's never really correcting him.

I understand gender politics of the time, I understand life being different back then, I understand the role of a woman in that era of Japan is far different than it is now. That explains it. To me, someone who has become far more aware and passionate about gender roles not only in videogames but in the industry, that doesn't excuse it, and it still sat really poorly with me.

I also felt like it was the weakest of the routes, and Meghan tells me I'm not alone in that feeling from past discussions. I felt that Sano never really showed any weakness or vulnerability, not like the others (again, assuming in Hijikata's sense), which removes something that I think is pretty crucial to these stories. Okita has a complete and total breakdown, Saito has a breakdown, Tails spends like two chapters in his, that stuff is critical. I had no investment in Kodo here, and it really seemed to come out of left field. Shiranui didn't seem to have much payoff, and the entire route seemed more to be about Harada and Nagakura, and while I really like Nagakura, not much in here worked for me. For some praise, the scene with Hijikata giving him an out worked really well -- I am a big fan of Hijikata on other routes.

In closing, I could not enjoy a romantic route in a videogame aimed at girls because it was too sexist against girls. I don't know what that says about me.

We spent about half an hour talking about this today, but I'll go ahead and post my thoughts here. I had noticed a few lines that sat poorly with me in Sano's route, but I handwaved them as a product of the time, or forced them into some sort of interpretation that excused them as not actually sexist. I still think that our differing opinions in some cases are equally legitimate interpretations, but I'll admit I was a bit frightened to realize how much casual rationalizing I was doing so I could keep enjoying it.

Something else you brought up earlier was Sano's aggression--he physically restrains her a time or two (though not severely, just a grip on her shoulder), and has lines approaching a yell now and then. There, we differ: you see it as an example of "do what I say, I know what's best for you because you can't take care of yourself", and I read it as coming from a place of desperation and deep concern--she doesn't know how to fight, she's outmatched, and she keeps trying to leave him and make this solely her problem. He loves her and doesn't want her to die, but she keeps throwing up a wall.

You've said before that sexism in video games tends to bother you much more than it does me, because you didn't really notice the subtle examples of it until I was around wanting to join you in your hobby, and you suddenly noticed how some games can look to a woman. By the same token, I don't always notice a lot of the subtle examples, to the point where it took us talking about Sano's route (which I've played twice) to realize it's the only one where her gender is a determining factor over the course of the route. It's pretty startling--am I just subconsciously picking my battles, or am I so used to casual sexism that I don't notice it?

Well, there's a legitimate point there - does the course of that particular route imply sexism inherent in the game itself and thus on the part of the designers, or is that how the character of Harada is supposed to be portrayed?

A quick correction there -- when I say that the route in the game struck me as sexist, I'm not implying the game is sexist (again, I understand the differences in that era versus now), and I also do not imply that anyone who worked on this game is sexist -- and there are plenty of routes where this kind of thing did not come up.

I don't think that Harada is being portrayed as sexist if the implication in that statement is that being sexist is a bad thing -- it's just a character trait of his, that women need to be protected, and his embarrassment at not being strong enough to protect a girl. It's certainly not presented as a negative in the game.

Sano's route was the first one I played after getting the Normal Ending. I didn't dislike it, but I do find it one of the weaker routes as compared to Okita's/Saito's/Hijikata's, and I do feel like it's the most sexist route. (In Hijikata's, as best I remember, Yukimura being female basically only comes up when he's acknowledging that she's got him owned and there's no point in arguing with her any more. Which I kind of liked.)

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but as a woman I do find that I overlook a lot of casual sexism in various media, and in many cases where I notice its presence I choose to continue to overlook it because there's just not enough time in the day to get worked up over every example of sexism in media that I run into, there's too many of them. So that probably informed my reaction to Sanosuke and his route.

I do think that it's not all sexism with Sano. It's true that, regardless of the route, Yukimura is The Load who has to be protected because, well, demon abilities aside she can't fight and doesn't have any skills that allow her to contribute much, especially once the common route is over and Toba-Fushimi happens and the Shinsengumi have to take their show on the road. I've commented on this elsewhere in the fandom and whenever I do, a popular response from people trying to argue on Yukimura's behalf is to point to the scene early in Sano's route where Shiranui has him on the ropes and the correct decision is not to run for it as Sano orders, but to actually take a bullet for him. Personally I don't find that this moment disproves much of anything, but it does suggest that we're not supposed to take Sano as a hundred percent correct in his attitudes - taking him at his word and trying to escape just gets both of you killed.

It's true that Sano never likes it when Yukimura tries to take matters into her own hands, but I agree with Rapunzel that it's not necessarily "because you're a woman and therefore helpless" so much as that, in trying not to burden Sano or anyone else, she's trying to shoulder her problems entirely by herself in a way that's not good for her because her problem - specifically, demons are trying to kidnap her - is actually a very big problem that she's not really equipped to resolve all on her own. In the final divergence point of the route, where Yukimura tries to leave Sano with Shinpachi and go back to Edo on her own, it's worth noting that at that point it's not even just about her - the people of Edo are also in danger, and her chances of being able to fix that on her own are slim to none, something she kind of overlooks in her conviction that she's breaking up the Beatles and that Sano and Shinpachi are better off sticking together.

I also feel like it's partly a product of the time period of the setting, and when Sano says "as a man I should protect women and children," what he's really saying is not "women are weak and men are strong" so much as "as a man trained as a warrior, I have a responsibility to protect people weaker than I am." The place and time being what they are, it's not exactly off-base of him to take it for granted that women and children will normally fall into that "weaker than I am" category. It's something that we don't hear so much from the other guys, because their reasons for fighting are different - for Okita it's all about Kondou, for Hijikata it's about proving that he's not tied down by social class, etc - where for Sano, protecting those weaker than him is the main reason. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I suspect that if Yukimura were a fighter herself and actually able to hold her own in combat, his attitude towards her might be a bit different...

...although he'd still probably encourage her to share her burdens with him rather than take them all solely upon herself, and maybe there's always going to be some sexism ingrained in that kind of a dynamic when it's the female character trying to do things herself and the male character urging her to let him take some of the load. I can never make up my mind on that point.

TL;DR and I've kind of waffled back and forth on the point I'm trying to make here, which is that yes, I think Sano's route is sexist, but not to the point that I feel it's a dealbreaker for me, a woman who admittedly is used to overlooking a fair amount of sexism in fiction. It's definitely interesting to see a guy's opinion on it, and makes me want to replay the route with a bit more awareness to see how much I actually overlooked or self-censored when I played it.

It also bears noting that Harada is also probably the least "samurai" of all the Shinsengumi in that he caters more to the idea of what they should be, rather than the ideals. This is a guy who treats a failed seppuku attempt as a joke - I could never figure out why folks like Hijikata and Kondou, who are all about honor and tradition, even acknowledge him because of that. With that in mind, it's not inconceivable that Sanosuke's mindset accepts the axioms of "Samurai are a class above mere peasants and why would they ever think to question their betters?" - his attitude may not be because Idiot Yukimura is a woman, but that in his mind she registers as "Not samurai? Weak and lesser and I'm supposed to protect you because the rules say so".

Maybe less of "you're helpless because you're a woman" but "you're helpless because everyone who isn't samurai is helpless because that's just how it is".

I'd also like to note that as far as sexism goes, I found Heisuke's route more troubling for its handling of Sen and Kimigiku - because they were introduced in the common route as a female in a position of power and her bodyguard, respectively, unlike Yukimura who admits from the get-go that even with the self-defense instruction that she's had, she knows she doesn't have it in her to do harm to others. And yet oni princess Sen is easily abducted by Sanan and turned into a damsel in distress, and Kimigiku turns out to have no combat ability whatsoever, and that was really disappointing.

This. ^

It really bothered me at the time and colored my perceptions of Heisuke's route to the point that it ranks as one of my least favorites. And I LIKE Heisuke in the other routes and anime. Okay fine, they can't take a male oni (or fury) head on but you have to assume that they would have learned martial arts that would allow for a radical difference in size and strength.

Here's a question re: Tails' route: was Sen's taking a baby for Chiyo a sign of character strength or weakness? Was it an admirable show of friendship and courage, or was it further enforcing her role as an expected babymaker? Discuss.

For the record, I think it's a little of both: yes, she's expected to further the demon lineage, and the curse of her rank means she's not in a position to deviate from that role while Chiyo is. It's a product of class and title as well as gender. On the other hand, making the offer to Kazama to get him away from Chiyo is f-ing heroic, in my opinion.

My opinion here is basically the same as yours. It sucks mightily for Sen that she's expected to give birth for the sake of her bloodline regardless of what she thinks about it, although as you say that has as much to do with her position as her sex. Either way, the fact that when all else fails she's willing to step up and make that offer to Kazama in order to allow Yukimura the freedom she can't have herself is a genuinely selfless and heroic thing to do. So it's both, but it didn't bother me, because of the fact that the text presents it as Sen making a sacrifice for Yukimura, rather than as a wholly positive decision.

Especially since it's Kazama we're talking about. And since we're on the topic of sexism in Hakuoki let me just say that the fact that he spends most of the game as a looming threat of sexual violence is the main reason I can't ever accept him as a possible love interest, as much as he proves that he can be a decent person in certain routes.

I cannot hit the like button hard enough for this. Seriously, he has no business ever being treated a legitimate love interest, His (multiple!) kidnapping attempts disqualify him for that.

This, so very much. What sold this act to me was the fact Sen scoffs at Kazama when he asks her if she means to marry him. She said she'd make him a baby, not marry him, and the fact she draws that line very damn clearly proved strength to me and that she was not willing to bend: She only agreed to the deal because she feels responsible for continuing the oni bloodline and since she wants to save a dear friend of hers. Sen has always come off as a strong female character to me, so I agree that her suddenly becoming weak towards Sannan was painful to watch.

But then, he did basically force her to drink his blood, and I attribute that to her being taken by surprised that he managed at all. I think she never expected someone who knew her position to simply force his way like that, but still, this feels like a flimsy excuse rather than an actual explanation.

Agreed. He doesn't even treat her as a person at the beginning, so while I like how he had a more favourable side to him in his "route", it didn't manage to really forgive anything for me. He has his reasons but that doesn't forgive or excuse his actions.

Heck, if it had been Amagiri vying for Chizuru, that might have been a different story. He doesn't feel comfortable or happy with his actions but does them due to a sense of honour and duty to pay back a debt, apologizes for his actions when they come towards harm for Chizuru, not to mention he does his best to make sure she's safe.

You know there's a problem when the non-romanceable subordinate seems more appealing than the actual romanceable party.

And as far as Harada's route goes, his was my least favourite precisely because of the gender issue. The arguments presented here do help in easing the whole thing for me, and his route isn't RUINED FOREVER for me either, I'm still willing to play it, but it doesn't appeal to me quite as much. It was rather irritating to go through at times, though I don't fully hold it against him.

Which is what worries me, honestly, because then I feel like I'm accepting sexist messages and shrugging it off like it's not a problem, which taints my opinion and feelings while playing his route.

so, on a total derail from the sexism talk, look what I found on tumbler:

Another problem I had with Harada's route is how many times you have to consciously choose to end up on your ass. There is one time when that isn't the right choice, and he doesn't seem to much like having a really proactive girlfriend. As a player, it kind of rankles to have to constantly choose to be passive. The gender roles in Harada's route are so continuously reinforced that some otherwise innocuous things he says come off in a bad light.
In the end, I do like all the routes, but Harada is second to least favorite, narrowly edging out Hijikata. And that might change once I replay Hijikata's route, but I currently just don't like the guy enough to hang around him for nine chapters.

While Tails' route does have problems with how it treats Sen and Kimigiku, both characters still get to be pretty cool in their own way. sen shields Chizuru with her uterus, and manages to fight Sannan for weeks if not months, as well as breaking from him in the end. It's Kimigiku who figures out how to get into Sannan's fortress and takes a sword to the gut for Chizuru. And since it's not Tails constantly going "Hey, I need to protect you guy since you are ladies" I can fully enjoy his character. While I was a little disappointed that they weren't a Battle Couple, there is enough girl power that I end up being okay with his route.

I do really like the character of Kazama, but the keyword here is character. I like all the characters in this game, but not all the people, if that makes any sense.

In the end, Tails' relationship with Chizuru might be my favorite just for how balanced it is. In Harada's route espcially, it always seems like he's leading the way all the way through, but Tails has a lot of self doubt and times where he really needs Chizuru. In Harada's route it's Chizuru who depends on him emotionally, but as she also depends on him physically, it just comes off as really unbalanced.

Sorry to ramble here, but it's late and I have feelings.

I apologize if the following is incoherent or doesn't make any sense at all. It's hard for me to express my thoughts on that matter in English.

The problem with Kazama is that it's really hard to pin-point his canon character. He just changes too much from path to path. Let's summarize.

• In Okita's path, he's given 5 lines before being written out, because Kaoru takes his place as villain.
• In Tails' path, pretty much the same happens. Sannan is the bad guy, so Kazama doesn't have to fill this roll. He's still a jerk, but he helps Tails and Chizuru to free Sen.
• In Saito's path, Kazama is the main villain. He even works together with Kodo to create more Rasetsu – something he strongly tries to prevent in Tails' path.
• In Hijikata's path, Kazama becomes so obsessed with the wish to beat Toshi that he pretty much forgets all about Chizuru.
• I don't remember his roll in Sano's path, because I honestly don't care about Sano and stopped paying attention somewhere around chapter 5.

Kazama does so many conflicting things based on the path you're on that I honestly find it impossible to say who's the real Kazama.
The only thing that's canon is him trying to kidnap Chizuru during the first three chapters. For myself, I chose to believe that the Kazama in the "bad end"/his path is the continuation to the first three chapters. He still wants his demon babies, but he takes Chizuru with him, because SHE wanted to follow along. He never once lays a finger on her. He kills her father but feels extremely bad about it and comforts her. He lets her decide what she wants to do after the end of their journey, without forcing her to come with him.
Yes, the whole kidnapping thing is really, really iffy. And some of the bad ends involving him are really creepy, too. But that's because they are BAD ENDS. I'm pretty sure there's some bad ends where your choosen beau kills you. That's pretty damn fucked up, too. But we still like them, because their happy endings are canon.

TL;DR: In every route that's not his own, Kazama is treated as a fill-in character for whatever roll is needed to be filled, making it impossible to say what's canon for him, and what's not.

The thing for me is that in those first three chapters of the common route, Kazama appears with the intention of kidnapping Yukimura so that she can have his demon babies and repeatedly ignores her unwillingness. Thus, looming threat of sexual violence. He doesn't seem to have any interest in Yukimura beyond the fact that as a female demon she's capable of breeding offspring; he makes at least one really unpleasant comment about how only a demon can make proper "use" of her. This is stuff that we can certainly take as canon. His behavior in Sanosuke, Saito, and Hijikata's routes and bad ends doesn't help, but the main issue is his behavior before the paths diverge - that's what kills him for me as a potential love interest.

I think that says you have a good conscience and awareness of bullshit in games.

Replace "Tails" with "Hijikata" in that second quote and you might understand my take on the character/route.
..I just really appreciated the depth to his character as you spend more time with him and see everything he's gone through to achieve his goals. Especially because at some point Chizuru becomes the one keeping him together whether he asks for it or not. I could be romanticizing/idealizing the route since it was the first one I played on accident and it's been a while, but I like to believe I have a decent memory.

I think this is pretty accurate. All of the routes other than Harada's have at least some sense of Yukimura as the main emotional support that the guy of the route has, but I think of all of them it's the most true in Hijikata's route, because more than any of the others his route is really just a study in taking a person and systematically destroying everything they value and believe in. And then just... watching what happens from there.

It's my favorite route, and I should probably not think too hard about what that implies about me. <_<

Definitely.
Heisuke's my favorite character, but Hijikata's is my favorite route~ so I'm right there with you

This.

Hijikata's route made me cry before I even got to the endings. That's a win.

As an added bonus, now that I've played his route, Hijikata makes me cry even in the other guys' routes!

Dammit.

Yes, and his was the first I did!
So when I went through all the other routes with my cousin (and she hadn't seen Hijikata's) I was just crying silently.
The pain of knowing what Hijikata's going through without you while you're off frolicking with the other guys.

I did his route last, so it wasn't so bad... until I went back for the replay.

And there's always, always that moment where Yukimura and the guy of the route part company with the Shinsengumi for good. And Hijikata's always there to watch them go. And it's one more tie cut, one more friend and comrade-in-arms he's never going to see again, one more support he's never going to get back.

and then I am a ridiculous teary mess and I have to put the game down.