Angry Israel/Palestine Ranting Thread.

Different people have been at slightly cross topics. I think Banquo was lumping all Israeli citizenship policy together as an inextricably tied together racist knot; lumping stuff like citizenship disadvantages for Arabs together with citizenship freebies for the Jewish diaspora buttresses the argument that the policy of a Jewish majority (or any policy seeking to maintain a Jewish majority?) constitutes racism. I've been mostly talking about the law of return specifically, whereas Lum and Alexb were talking part of the time about Birthright Israel, a more recent program of free trips to Israel.

Without any subtle snark intended in the question, I assume you've read up on Zionism and Arab-Israeli history since Herzl? Reading it personally I certainly wish had turned out better but there was rarely an occasion where I might legitimately think (forehead slap) "ah you boneheads, why did you implement Zionism this way?" The blindness towards the number and significance of Arab Palestinians is striking looking at the mindset of Herzl and then the actual leaders of the Yishuv during the waves of settlement. But in light of contemporary "norms" for that sort of obliviousness, and the exagerated Zionist expectations that millions and millions of Jewish settlers would arrive are an important context for that. (And that's without getting into the contribution made to the Arab-Israeli conflict by other parties, which on the one hand sounds like "but others were racist/violent/to-blame", but on the other hand is essential to understanding the historical narrative.)

Used where, and by whom? A lot of liberals, myself included, are awkward with the idea of any sort of tribalistic nationalism, or maintaining certain nations in certain majority statuses in nation-states. Plus for a lot of people it's more of an historical term? I don't really feel like it's a word to conjure with these days.

Between your attempts to defend Israeli Apartheid based on the fact that apparently Palestinians comb their hair so differently they ought not be allowed back into their country lest god forbid the practice catch on, and your decidedly inhuman response to moral luck, and not to mention your fatfingers grabby belief that you can appropriate the creative works of others without paying them because if they are any good they will make the money back by selling t-shirts (not protected by copyright) on tour, I believe we have finally come to the moment of truth.

Alexb, I have reviewed your participation in a number of threads on the Sanctum Santorum, and I hereby recognize now and forever that you are a fucking lunatic. May you wear proudly the ornaments and badges of your station. With this measuring tape, may you dutifully take note of the cranial circumferences of every man, woman, and child that you meet so that you may know whether or not they qualify under your standards to be victims of racism. And upon your head, so that thine mightily blind observations might never be tainted by the evil of generally accepted notions of basic human decency or compassion, a filthy compassion which is beamed to us nightly by our opponents in the CIA, a pavise of the finest tinfoil the Reynolds corporation hath heretofore struck. Lastly, to speed you on your journey, a pair of shoes. Not just any pair of shoes, brave Alex. One spraypainted golden set of Crocs, duct taped to it the streamers from a nine year old girls bicycle, so that you may at once walk in comfort while letting all know that while many men covet the innocence of youth, you alone possess something of a child's much greater, you alone possess their stupidity.

Go now, strengthened by your contrarianism and watered by your own indiscretion, go forth and spread your wisdom far and wide, to every corner of the Earth! Zeus hath long regretted Prometheus making theft of the gift of fire, and ever have the gods conspired to place man back into a state natural and unencumbered by artifice or economy. All so long and all for naught! More plots hatched than hecatoncheires might count on their fingers. Ever they failed. Ever Zeus lamented.

Until there was you, brave Alexb.

Until there was you.

Aww thanks Flowers, that's really sweet.

E: fwiw, I don't support Apartheid in any form, nor do I support Israeli policies vis-a-vis Palestine. I've done my best to explain why I don't think those policies are necessarily racist, though they certainly are odious. I have mixed feelings on copyright (like most people), and I can see arguments for and against it. I take a different view than you on what the justice system should punish.

I don't think any of these disagreements make me a lunatic; you are obviously entitled to your own opinion. Can we just leave it at that?

YW. No time for that, though.

You have work to do.

So if black people were denied the vote for "cultural reasons" rather than racist reasons, then it wouldn't be racist?

I think you need to be careful that your desire to support positive discrimination doesn't result in an argument that makes actual racial discrimination anything other than racism.

Indeed. Every one of the racists I've met gave "cultural reasons" when pressed for why they had such hatred. It's not that they're black/red/yellow/brown -- it's that they're (Blacks in the US) /savages/! You can't trust /them/ (Arabs in France), they're all /thieves/! Don't let your kids play with theirs, they (Middle Asians in Russia) might kidnap them! These aren't vague generalizations either, but specific and personal examples.

Rationalizing racism as "cultural differences" is right up there with "I've got Black Friends, so I'm not racist" and "Sure there are 'good niggers', but they're not really black".

Meanwhile, the last polls before the elections show that Israel is likely to become even more hawkish and belligerent:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/18/binyamin-netanyahu-israeli-elections

Legally unable to.... Whaaaaatttt???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/20/netanyahu-obama-rift-widens

Accusing Obama of interfering in Israeli elections, now that is irony considering that Netanyahu all but campaigned openly for Romney.

When a kid in Israel is thinking of the KKK as being on their side, you know shit has gone wrong.

On the positive side, at least that conflict finally has a clear bad guy. It was oh-so-confusing when both sides were being obstructionist & dickish in equal measure.

So basically, the Free Market has spoken!

Or, you know, stacks of outside cash with a desire to destroy a marketplace by taking a huge loss until all your competition rolls over.

It's a good thing the west helped these nice folks develop nuclear weapons. :-/

EDIT: ...And then it just kept getting worse.

Ta for that. Watched the video too and... arrgggg. No words. Can't bring myself to watch the other videos.

To summarize in cat form:

Fascinating. Do you have any links to that story?
I know that if I post it, I'll be asked, and "this very knowledgeable American game developer I sorta know" won't quite cut it...

Goddamn, really? Jews advocating for concentration camps and liking the KKK? I mean, not that anybody else would have any excuse either, but come the fuck on.

How about Russians becoming neo-Nazis?

People do weird shit. And in cases where history should show them how not to do things... they usually ignore history except as it helps support their beliefs.

If we could be so lucky.

Looks like we're getting something just on the cusp of the "meh" and "surprise left-wing upset" scenarios?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/01/2013122214950510525.html

Not sure if I agree with the "meh" analysis, most headlines seem to consider the poor showing by the right surprising, at least.

I don't know about "most sources" but given what I've been reading recently I'm surprised that they lost seats -- 11 out of 42 is pretty sharp drop.

Will this lead to any change in policy though?

If Yesh Atid thinks they can convince the religious parties to say "no" to Netanyahu, they get to lead instead of follow, right?

Well, that was unexpected. What caused the 180?

Ah. So Likud/Beiteinu is pretty much guaranteed to be the lead party, but they could... try to form a coalition with the center (possibly at the expense of Habayit, but that seems ludicrously unlikely?) or stick with the religious, but there's basically no way, if the exit polls are accurate, for anyone else to head the government?

I take it the chances of the center/left forming a government with the Arab parties is totally out of the question, right?