Angry Israel/Palestine Ranting Thread.

The camps are not a direct result of racism, interning unwanted migrants is the sad reality in many parts of Europe. The racism is instead going to make itself known in how Israel is treating those migrants, once they are detained.

I can't quite figure out why I'm shocked by this given the state of apartheid in Israel, but I'm shocked nonetheless. I mean concentration camps... how could the irony be any more blunt?

As blunt as anti-sionist orthodox jews spraying pro-Hitler messages on the Yad Vashem memorials?

Those are tasteless attempts at irony, but I don't think actually pro Hitler. They're basically saying the targets of their vandalism benefited from Hitler's atrocities, with the (baseless) implication that Zionists wanted the Holocaust.

Bah. Why do prisoners deserve sanitation? Public Health? Pffft. Waste of money!

What I don't quite get is why are refugees crossing Egypt into Israel? I know there's political turmoil in Egypt, but still...

Yeah, second one is pay-walled; thanks for the quote!

A MOP RAPED MY DA'

Was the average Israeli always this crazy? Is it just a sideeffect of the big Russian immigration?

Maybe they should suggest the Israeli government make businesses employing black people prominently display identifying symbols on their storefronts. Or would that irony be lost on them too? :-/

Media/political rhetoric drives cultural paradigms, which feeds back into the former, and Israel's political system has been batshit insane for decades due to the overwhelming power of the relatively small power blocs of the ultra-Orthodox, so...

Not strictly Israel/Palestine but rather Israel/Iran/US/why is this happening why are you so stupid.

You keep trying to wag that dog, Bibi.

Not more so then the average American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border


No, the average Israeli, as the average American, does not think this is right. Unfortunately that doesn't stop governments from doing their thing,

marxeil: I'd also disagree with generalizations, even semi-seriously, about "the average [citizen of country XYZ"] going crazy. And "the US in 2001-2008" (and more specifically in the 02 - ~05 period when it looked like a permanent new GOP era), is one example one could cite by way of rejoinder: however batshit the political discourse became, I imagine we can agree it would have been unhelpful - in terms of serious political analysis - to give in to the temptation to "diagnose" national insanity.

But, and it's a big but, I think a comparison between the present Israeli government and its policies and political dysfunction in the US falls flat. Even in the worst 2001-05 period of GOP dominance, the Democrats weren't in the shape the Israeli left is in electorally. I know the existence of Kadima makes that an inexact argument, but Kadima isn't really a party I'd vote for, so things look pretty dire to me barring a fairly revolutionary political shakeup.

And more to the point of the thread, even when the Bush administration was appointing a fox to be minister responsible for chickens every month - and that got darkly hilarious, it was so bad - there was no Eli Yishai. Even Bush didn't make Joe Arpaio attorney general. Between the frothing, more or less fascistic insanity of Netanyahu's coalition allies and his own apparent decision to opt (perhaps irreversibly) for a one-state future, the current political complexion of Israel frightens the heck out of me.

I absolutly agree with you. I was just annoyed by the generalisation about the average Israeli citizen. Halikud, Israel beitenu and Shas are leading Israel to the precipice of likely destruction (and on the way commit all sorts of vile acts). Thats part of the reason I don't leave there anymore and hope not to have to go back.
However I still have many good friends there and I can tell you that on average they are not at all happy with the general state of affairs there. They also don't see much hope even if Haavoda was to take over.

All in all I'd say the average Israeli isn't crazy, he's feeling hopeless.

You know how we talked about racism back when Israel was planning on putting Africans in tented desert camps? Well, it turns out that roughly half of the Israeli Jewish population is not only racist but openly racist.

This according to a new poll. (Originally sourced from Haaretz, but it's paywalled)

The first two paragraphs kind of require crosstabs; annexation and citizenship effectively means the end of a Zionist Israel, so while the principled answer would be "if it were annexed then we should end Zionist Israel," the better answer would be "guess it shouldn't be annexed then," and it's not clear that that's an option.

The third paragraph is grim stuff however.

Not entirely surprisingly, due to the selection bias. The state of Israel has long had essentially racist policies, and as a direct result more open-minded Jews tend not to emigrate to Israel in the first place.

Shocking that the percentages are so high though. Interesting too that 58% of those polled felt that Israel is already an apartheid state -- really puts the nail in the coffin of that argument! Past time to update "Not gonna play Sun City".

Well, unpack that. To some people "Zionism" (as in a Jewish national majority principle and immigration policies) is "essentially racist": I've always thought was one of those things people could only say in a sort of Israel-disapproving history-bubble, but it's sort of it's own discussion. Letting down the Arab-Israeli minority and/or failing to proactively fight racism and discrimination against it is a plausible charge of failed racial policy. Finally and least ambiguously, one-state-no-citizenship annexationism is apartheid-advocacy.

I'm assuming that last equivalence is what the 58% are acknowledging, probably out of a consciousness that it's becoming the policy of the right wing parties, Likud included, to the extent that it hasn't already. But without a crosstab for how many respondants added "...and that's great!" it's not clear whether that's an encouraging or discouraging recognition of reality.

The poll numbers for racism there's just no varnishing, any more than one can varnish the rightward lurch of parliamentary politics.

There is no varnishing, and I doubt it's going to get better. The most horrifying thought is that the two-state solution is dead thanks to decades of more or less unfettered settlements and that was what would keep Israelis feeling safe enough in their ethnic majority that they wouldn't feel the need for apartheid policies. With a one-state solution, or a complete lack of solution, as the only seemingly plausible way forwards those fears are going to get stoked again and we'll get another South Africa for real with a privileged minority of Jews ruling over a majority population of Arabs.

The party-political situation is far from encouraging and another Netanyahu government after the January elections is a very plausible disaster (his re-election being seen as inevitable during the recent brush with a snap election).

That said I don't think think (outside of right-wing-Israeli fantasyland) there's any way Likud et al can continue to creep asymptotally towards annexationism without it being recognized for what it is. Hard to predict what the implications of that'd be in Israel and abroad.

Who knows, maybe it could happen. I certainly didn't see the end of apartheid coming in South Africa.

Someone needs to tell the Israelis that the way to remember World War II is to reenact the battles, not the legislation.

Unification of Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu Shocks Israeli Political Arena

Different opinions expressed about what sort of alliance it means, but a single list certainly seems like a merger. If progressive and/or genuinely centrist politics in Israel were a bit more robust I'd be inclined to say "good, truth in advertising, now Likud says 'extreme' right on the tin" but who knows these days.

Holy fuckballs.

I shudder to think how this would play out if it comes to fruition and Romney is also elected in the US. Seems like war with Iran would be almost certain.

This aint the thread for good news.

Avigdor Lieberman threatens to overthrow the PA

Pretty cynical considering that the PA wouldn't consider this move if there was anything on the table worth negotiating over. Speaking of which

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And as if that wasn't enough grim news for the day Israel fired a rocket at the car carrying Hamas' military chief in the Gaza strip a few hours ago, killing him along with his son, and there's a spectre of another invasion of Gaza.

Along with the willingness to counter-bait Syria while it implodes, it's looking like a real mess.

I guess the current Israeli leadership was banking on getting Romney, having failed in that quest they've decided to try and draw the US into their bullshit by starting a fight with everyone at once. I've also just been reminded that the Isreali elections are coming up shortly in which Netenyahu has teamed up with Lieberman to form an axis of stupid.

The change in government over in Egypt is already having an effect on the mood music at least with the governing Muslim Brotherhood saying something like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20328799

Not sure what Israel can do about Gaza anymore that would be the right thing. No country should stand for another area lobbing rockets at its cities. Hamas isn't going to stop doing that anytime soon.

The right thing to do would be to stop settling the West Bank and let the Palestinians have a viable state. Do that and the Palestinians can focus on getting their house in order instead of lashing out at Israel. But that would require an Israeli government that actually wants peace. The current one is quite content to indulge the settlers while dealing with occasional bursts of violence and rockets.

Not sure what Gaza can do about Israel anymore that would be the right thing. No region should stand for another country occupying it against it's will. Israel isn't going to stop doing that anytime soon.

I can only imagine that if Canada started building cities inside the US, we'd have a bit of a conversation about it. As much as we can bitch and moan about random rocket fire being completely useless and actually harmful to a cause.. I'm pretty sure anyone managing to occupy part of the US would get shot at pretty regularly by the locals. Same deal with when we want to meddle in elections, then get all pissy when election monitors show up just to look at ours.

I can see Israel being upset at the rockets. But I can also empathize heavily with the Palestinians living in a situation that would lead most people to revolt.

It's advantageous if we don't act like the Palestinians are doing anything other than what is pretty natural for people to do given their situation. The question is "how do we solve the whole thing" and I can't see a solution that doesn't involve Israel giving up the settlements and a third party guarding the borders between the two.