Casual sexism and the Nashville music scene

I've been very lucky so far to be able to participate in jams around Nashville with a minimum of dismissive douchiness, even though I'm a female drummer and not a professional musician. On most Wednesdays I go to a bar not far from my house, and the owner of the bar runs a really nice, open jam that welcomes anyone regardless of ability, experience, etc.

The owner's out of town right now, so he invited a very talented local guitar player to fill in for him, and tonight was my first bad experience. When he FINALLY started inviting drummers who weren't the guy who plays in his band (open jam sin #1 - hogging the stage and making people with day jobs wait all night to play), he hollered to me, "Honey, we'll do one more song and then get you up." When he finally did, he was all, "Come on up and play some drums, honey." By this time I was annoyed, and I had also been whipped into a bit of a huff by a friend who was with me, so as I walked to the stage, I told him my name wasn't "honey." So instantly he gets indignant, because clearly I have a problem, a big-ass feminazi chip on my shoulder. "Hey, I'm sorry, I don't know your name. What is it?" So I tell him.

And then I instantly regret having protested. So I fall back on a joke. "But you can call me Sweet Thang." Because I don't have the right to object to dumbass sexism because I'll be called a feminazi or, yes, a Humorless Lesbian. It worked, because all the boys had a big laugh and maybe they don't think I'm a man-hating bulldyke.

We got through the first song ("Johnny B. Goode" without a proper warmup is a bit of a workout), and my friend, who is very attractive, came to the stage to bring me my beer. So of course the asshole guitar player had to say something disrespectful to her as well. "You gonna bring me a drink too, sweetheart?" Her: "Nope." "Aw, c'mon, I'll give you a great tip." Jeez-US.

I played three songs and then, because I wanted another friend of mine to get a chance to play before the asshole brings his friend up again, I kinda yell, "Hey, sweet cheeks" to him to get his attention. I make kissy noises. When he finally turns around I urge him to invite my buddy up to play, and I leave the stage.

The friend who was with me was DYING laughing. We left soon afterward.

So my friend is urging me to say something to the owner about his fill-in jam host, and I'm resisting. Even though the owner runs a great jam, I don't want him to think I'm a bad sport whenever someone misbehaves just a tad.

Luckily this guy really sucked in a lot of other ways, so hopefully word will get back to the owner not to hire him again.

At most, I may send the owner a Facebook message telling him that I really appreciate the respectful, generous and inclusive way he runs his jams and I look forward to his return. Maybe he'll get the hint that my experience with the other guy wasn't altogether positive.

I don't know why I posted this - just wanted to get it off my chest, I guess. AND WHAT A CHEST, AMIRITE?

You're cool Jerri, for serious.

You are way the fuck more understanding about this than you by rights should have to be.

Was it a friendly honey or a disrespectful honey? I can never tell them apart.

Just check for the little bear container, that's how you know.




(naughty bear!)

If I were THAT understanding, I wouldn't have come home and typed my little tl;dr screed. :) But I imagine this is pretty mild compared to what people of color deal with on a daily basis - casual and not-so-casual racism that they don't call people out on for fear of being thought uppity.

I'm sure he thought he was being friendly. The way he chose to be friendly was disrespectful because he is a clueless dickscrape (God, I love that word. Thanks, Patton Oswalt!). I doubt he called any of the men whose name he didn't know "honey" - he probably asked their names and went from there.

I'm guessing that a part of it is that you don't want something that you love doing disrupted because you chose to speak up. Having to compromise ideals or, at an even more base level, one's own feelings, because not everyone is on the same enlightened page quite frankly sucks.

Shit also rolls downhill in the old boy's club of music. You're completely right with your remark about people of color - what black people in music, save the superstars (and even them, to a degree) had to put up with 50+ years ago is very similar to what women in music have to put up with today...

...if he was anything like all of the "talents" I've ever known, he thought he was doing you a favor by inviting you up. "Aww, what a sweet thing, thinks she can play the drums! Let's give her a chance! Hey, not bad! - you're a fine drummer... for a woman. You'd be a real draw at a show, just make sure to showoff your assets every night, honey. (and I'm not talking about your skills)"

You could easily replace "honey" with "boy" above and make it all about "clean-cut negroes" and you'd have the same conversation taking place in every bar in the early 50s. Fucking bullshit is one of the reasons I find most musicians absolutely incorrigible. It's all said and done with a wink and a nudge, and it is possible to truly earn their respect once you've gone through the hazing ritual, but it's not as if that makes the complete lack of respect for another person's humanity any more tolerable.

Sorry to rant off your rant.

The pub owner would probably like to know if his replacement was a douche. I think of it like this: it's in his interest for patrons like you to be happy. When you aren't happy, you aren't coming back. That is lost business for him, and a simple "Hey your replacement sucked. I don't want to jam with him anymore" is socially acceptable and frankly, cathartic.

The alternative? Let me know the next time he's on, and I will roll down there and there will be much heckling. I don't get heckle in socially appropriate anymore. I'M DYING TO BE AN ASSHOLE HERE JERRI

This post was really specific.

The thing to keep in mind when dealing with people in showbusiness is that pleasant people go far, shitty people go down. Never throw someone under a bus who was going to walk in front of one anyway. As AC/DC said, it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll, and there are tons of shit sandwiches you have to eat if you want to entertain people, but that is never the crowd's problem. The size of the crowd, the amount of your pay, the dickishness of the management, nothing matters to the crowd other than whether or not they get a great show. They only see the show, they don't get to know the business. Also, if that guy treats you like shit, it's not your problem, it's his problem, because people don't like working with people who require excuses be made on their behalf.

You handled the situation perfectly, and this is something you can resolve simply through a display of professionalism over time. Choosing sides in disputes of this nature is seldom wise and even less often necessary. Only say something if you do not mind it getting back to the person. It will.

I know for me, while I understand when dudes are all "you should say something," this is exactly why I don't, if I don't. Because the reaction to "hey, please don't do that" is never "oh, sorry, my bad" and it's so tiring and you just want to do your THING that you LIKE.

I play french horn, but never in anything more serious than a college orchestra, where all the horn players were women (it was sort of amusing, my class had ~15 horn players in the various music majors and 13 of them were ladies), I've never reeeeeally had to deal with anything as maddening as this, although I did have one bizarre audition where one of my strings broke and the three dudes auditioning me fell over themselves to fix it, even though I told them I knew how. It would've taken me about two minutes to do, it took them what felt like FOREVER. Because none of them were fucking horn players. I hate auditioning to start with, so I was a goddamn wreck by the time I got my horn back (I was 17, and not anywhere near as assertive as I am now ... and I really am not particularly assertive.). Blew that audition. :(

There are a lot of women who play french horn in community bands and shit, though, so at my level, no one gives a shit if you have a dick or not. I am lead to believe that this is sadly not the case once you start getting into srs bizness orchestras, though.

Sjofn


Strings?

wat

Valves.

I am quoting this forever.

If you flip that horn over, you'll see the valves do not work like other brass instruments. I'll poke around in GIS to find a good picture. But this popped up on the first page and omg I want it:





edit: I am sort of a liar, I believe there's a thumb valve on trombones that work similarly? I'm not sure, I try not to make eye contact with trombone players, let alone look at their instrument.

ffffffff, it is proving hard to fiiiiind a pictuuuuuuure. I am this close to cracking Ingmar's case open and taking a picture of HIS horn (my current horn does not, in fact, have string-based valve mechanisms!).

I should note that I'm liking every single post in this thread so far, because I am trying to steal Elyscape 's thunder have a bit of family history with music; while I'm not a musician myself, my mother was a bassist in a local Death Metal band (well, several local Death Metal bands)until about 5 - 6 years ago. The after-gig parties were awesome.

As such, I'm very happy whenever I see women making strides in the music business, and notably less happy when I hear about asshats like the one you had to deal with, Jerri. FWIW, I think you handled things very professionally, and Flowers has the right of it; dudebro's general "meh"ness probably didn't go over favorably with the crowd, and I sorta doubt you'll see him again.

Also, I find the fact that you are a drummer pretty damn awesome... In my personal experience, good drummers are kinda hard to find, and female drummers even less so. You're going to have to post some recordings or somethin'; wouldn't mind hearing ya play.

OK, this will hopefully do:



If you look closely at the long metal part (those are the underside of the keys, basically), you'll see there are strings that are used to operate the ROTARY VALVE MECHANISM. One of those broke, which meant that valve no worky.




Sorry about the derail, Jerri! D:

One last post: Ingmar is pooh-poohing that fabulous pink horn as "unprofessional," and I feel oppressed.

EruditeDragon EXCUSE YOU. If anyone's dethroning Elyscape it's me.

<obligatory TMGS reference>RIVAL MODE ACTIVATED</i am just being a silly>

I never knew Ingmar was a colorist. I guess his strict, conservative, aristocratic education in the classics reinforced a rigid adherence to traditionalism. What brass in this advanced age.

I thought all sorts of men and women called each other Honey in Nashville. Whenever someone calls me Honey, it's almost always a Southern woman. I just thought that was a standard greeting there.

..Teenage Mutant Ginger ...Snakes..??

I think you overreacted.

I like this idea better than whatever it really stands for

I would have assumed that would be normal behavior for Nashville, but as a musician for the past 30yrs you do need to have a tough skin no matter how much of a douche' open mic dude was.

I look at it like being a stripper, I've been groped onstage (by drunken females of course) had drinks spilled on me and my equipment by said drunken females, and sometimes have to endure their bad breath when they try to sing into my mic with me.

Yep. Exactly the same. But look at you, you trooper. Never once complaining, unlike a certain thin-skinned woman I might mention. Will no one ever truly appreciate the plight of the sexually harassed man?!

Drumming is like being a stripper ... but without the "taking clothes off" part I assume? Am I reading this right? It's generally accepted to cop a feel at live performances? I knew I should have got closer to the stage at that Stuart Hamm gig!

I understand not wanting to raise hell, but I don't think you need to - a FB message is a good way to go (it's passive, owner can read and react on his own time and decide how to respond without being put on the spot), but I wouldn't just leave it to hinting and hope. I'd take it just one small step further and give him the information without attaching a presupposed reaction; that way it's low drama but he still knows what went down. Like tell him that you do appreciate how respectful and inclusive he is about his open mics, and say something like "It took having someone else host to make me realize how much I appreciate that from you - the guy you got to sub wasn't nearly as considerate to the women there. It's so much more welcoming and comfortable when you're hosting these."

You have really nailed the tone, except for maybe the last part. Just sort of condescension in general.

I get called "baby" and "honey" by guys sometimes - it probably is a Southern thing, and I don't mind it at all if I know them and know they're being affectionate rather than condescending and disrespectful.

I'm going to think about it a bit more. The owner's usual bandmates were there too and are likely to give the owner a heads-up that the guy was a jerk in general. In addition to the disrespect to the women, he hogged the stage. The jam starts at 9; it was 10:30 before he started letting people get up. Additionally, he felt he had to be on stage for every song, whether it was on guitar, backup vocals or drums. I don't think he really understands the role of a jam host, which is to check the sound, warm up the crowd with a short set and then get the hell out of the way.

As I was at the bar settling my tab, the owner's sax player (also at the bar) hollered "Hey, Sweet Cheeks" at me, and I responded, "Hey, baby, back that thang up," and we had a nice laugh. So thankfully I wasn't the only one who saw it. I have a feeling it'll get back to the owner one way or the other.

Thanks for all of you who've responded. This has been helpful.

You asked for it. It's been hard to get good recordings in bars, but this one isn't too terrible.

OH GOD WHAT IS THIS PAIN WHY WON'T MY EARS STOP BLEEEEEEEEEDING

You're lucky I wasn't singing on that track. You would have spontaneously combusted.

Quoted for AWESOME

I would send the note anonymously with thorough detail, but I'm that kind of prick.

Will you be my Huckleberry?

Damn Jerri, you play a mean set of skins. Nice work!

Yeah, best to pick your battles I think.

You only get so much "in your face, asshole" karma to spend as the resulting scene makes bystanders uncomfortable, and if the guy is clearly such a dickscrape (hahaha, awesome phrase!), well, save your coin for something more serious and let him step in front of the asshole bus himself.

jerri, you may appreciate this story, it came to mind as I was reading yours.

Back when I was in college (and dinosaurs ruled the earth) I played in a band in college. We did pretty well, and we were about 90 minutes from New Orleans and got some gigs there. My preference has always been blues and jazz, but back then everyone would holler "Y'all know any ZZ Top?!?!" We did, ;)

We had a harp player (harmonica, not stringed harp) who was amazing, older than I was, and he played for a lot of folks, including Jimmy Buffet. It was always cool because he had so many connections and friends who were "names" and they'd sometimes join us on stage in NO. One night, 1978, we got done, we had the early gig and another band followed us, so we left and went wandering the Quarter, along with Finger's (harp player) friend Nancy and her boyfriend. We stopped in a place that was doing an amateur night, with an ass who was running things, and he (the ass) was basically making fun of the people who got up and played. We were getting irritated and we were also getting drunk, so when asshole stepped in and played himself (guitar, had a beautiful Les Paul Custom) we would make fun of him. He was pretty good, about as good as I was, but nothing special. He got pissed at us making fun of him, did the old "you think you can do better?" and Nancy chimed in and said I've got a goldfish at home that is deformed and one fin looks like a finger and she could do better. I literally spit my beer laughing at that line, the audience was laughing, and asshole says "Yeah, honey cakes, easy for a pretty girl to talk, you wanna take my guitar yourself?"

Nancy said sure. Handed me her drink. Walked up, strapped on the guitar, tuned it up, and started playing, And singing.

And the place took a while to figure it out, but when she started singing "Barracuda" they got it. Nancy was Nancy Wilson. As in "Heart" Nancy Wilson. OMG could she play guitar. she played two songs, including a blues jam, and then she took off the guitar, handed it to the asshole, and said "Thanks. Your turn, baby cakes."

The cool thing about New Orleans back then was that she wasn't bombarded after that with people wanting her autograph, etc, She did get free drinks, though. ;)

Hahahha. The look on that smug chump's face must have been epic. :-)

I remember when we left, Fingers put his arm around her shoulders and said "That was cool but it would have been really amazing if you'd been Clapton." LOL! Nancy punched him pretty hard. She was a couple of years older than I was (man is SHE old, LOL!) so she was still pretty young back then. She was in New Orleans with her sister, something about some dispute they were in the middle of with their label at the time, and for some reason they had lawyers in New Orleans.

But jerri, I do remember her talking about how tough it was to be a woman in the industry, even for them (in 1978 they had released Little Queen, and Dreamboat Annie was a hit.) She said the other musicians and bands and managers and studio folks always seemed to come across a little bit demeaning or belittling.