Discussion in 'My Souls So Dark' started by Lizard_King, Dec 11, 2012.
I'd kill Lautrec in his cell if I didn't need that Ring of Favor and Protection!
I think it's a mystery that the Balder and heavy knights are the key to. Is there anything to suggest that they have a connection to the Way of White? They're hanging out in that church but they're also hanging out in Sen's Fortress. I'm more inclined to suspect that they have ties to Seath than the Way of White, since they're also always found near guys with strong connections to him (the channeler in the church and the man-serpents in Sen's). But there's very little to go on either way, and I don't know what they're doing with that firekeeper soul.
For that matter, is there any particular connection between the Way of White and the firekeepers? We may be going about it the wrong way by assuming the WoW is involved at all. I've always assumed that the church was abandoned by its actual practitioners, and Rhea only goes there because it's the only one around. They don't use it as the WoW meeting place/staging area after all, and it would seem natural to do so. Also, they meet up right next to the elevator that leads to that church, but the elevator is broken, which to me suggests that they haven't been using the church and probably don't even have access to it.
Then you should kill him in his cell. Merry belated Christmas!
They should rename that to the Curse of Favor and Protection.
I wonder if you don't activate the elevator if Rhea's destination changes. The connection between the kindling and linking the fires is around Rhea's quest, which iirc they are pretty explicit about. It would seem that is at least inclining them to protect the firekeepers, although as I said it's unclear what she is praying to in the church. But that could simply be a common purpose between the Way of White and the Balder/Steel groups. I just think of them as somehow connected to Havel as he's the bigshot of clerics aesthetically, although I really don't remember anything expressly connecting them and don't really know what the deal is with Berenike generally.
This page is better:
From what I can deduce, prior to the events of the game many of the wider world's more impressive knightly orders (including Berenike's posse and the knights of Balder) set off to Lodran to try and do what the player eventually does because the undead curse had struck their lands. But they all failed at some point in the journey, becoming hollow and ending up as obstacles for the next person who tried to ring the bells, gather the lord vessel and link the flames.
I've seen that section of that wiki, but I have trouble distinguishing between directly sourced statements and assumptions (Tarkus and the Berenike knights are mentioned on some of the same items, but comparatively as in Tarkus' shield and not necessarily as one unit or countrymen, for instance). I just try not to assume too much about the places that are basically a uniform and some items in the game; I was completely off in my mental picture of Oolacile, that's for damned sure.
Is it just me or does the Kiln look like a stylized version of the aftermath of ground zero of a nuclear explosion?
And this was discovered after the game came out. Dark Souls.
ENB's Siegmeyer of Catarina, the hollow lifestyle.
I read AS Byatt's Ragnarok this week-end. It confirmed my suspicions that Dark Souls is basically a corruption of Ragnarok and bits of the Norse/Germanic myths. It had been a while since I had actually read the myths and I now know it's a mis-interpreting, but still.
Sif-> actually the name of Thor's wife, but not hugely relevant.
Artorias and Sif -> Tyr and Fenris. Tyr was a great hunter who raised the wolf-cub Fenris (son of Loki). When the time came to bind Fenris, Tyr sacrificed part of himself for Fenris. Fenris also had a sword placed in his jaws (ostensibly to keep them open). Fenris is actually one of the destroyers in Ragnarok, and is chained to his place in the forest by unbreakable bonds made of things intangible.
The Primordial Serpents -> Jormungandr. Byatt specifically describes the world-serpent, that resides in the depths and encircles the earth as having a crown of fleshy fronds. The PS have a moustache. Also, interestingly, Jormungandr's rising is the start of Ragnarok (cf Kaathe rising and bringing out the Void from beneath Oolacile, starting this tale).
Gwyn -> Surtr, I think. A great giant who, with a sword of flame, would battle the gods and engulf the earth in flame.
The Great Hollow ->Yggdrasil. Even more fun, at the bottom of Yggdrasil lies the dragon Nidhogg.
Lodran -> somewhere between Jotunheim and Asgard. That would make Undead Burg Valhalla, where warriors go to fight and die, being reborn on the next day. It would also make New Londo possibly Helheim (if the Tomb isn't), with the Demon Ruins difficult to place (Muspelheim?).
The Abyss -> Ginnungagap. Not fully convinced by this one yet.
Velka -> Velkarie (valkyrie). They were judgement for human warriors.
I don't have anything for specific gods, although I think Solaire is possibly Thor.
The Duke's Archives I don't think map to any specific mythology. I actually think they're derived from Hans Christian Anderson, although I would struggle to pick any specific tales beyond The Snow Queen.
I could probably go on further and pick out more bits and pieces but it doesn't really add anything to our understanding of the story (beyond giving some context). It's quite neat to see how the pieces have been re-arranged for the game. Any Norwegians or Danes more familiar with the tales can correct me where I'm wrong.
I would probably have to read some proper literature about the Norse myths, or read a good translation or telling of the tales to get a firmer grasp on what's been re-arranged and where. It's been a long time since I read the Norse myths.
Love this post so much. We've talked before about the resonance between DS and Norse myths (I think you were in that discussion in fact), and while some of these parallels did occur to me there are a bunch that didn't. Sif = Fenrir in particular I'm kind of kicking myself for not seeing. In return, I offer you Gwyndolin = Vidar, kinda: son of a slain god who doesn't exactly take his father's place, and also a god of vengeance, although this brings up the whole Velka question mark all over again, which I don't think there's really an answer to.
Nice catch. There are a lot of bits and pieces in there, and I wonder how much that will help an understanding of the story. There's one big, important one, though. Ragnarok was, by my understanding, it as far as the Norse mythology goes. The all-too-human Aesir met their doom and that was the end of the world. It's incredibly bleak and that bleeds through into the game. I'm enjoying seeing how Miyazaki has re-read the myths, but mostly I'm happy for it making me re-read or discover the Norse mythologies that I haven't looked at in years. It makes me wonder if I should look into the Celtic and Germanic stories too, as I don't know them at all and I probably should.
Anyway, couple of other things struck me:
I think the Firekeepers are also Valkyrie. They're all women that cradle humanity in their bosom, and they represent a warrior's rest. Does that mean there's a connection between Velka and the Firekeepers? Unlikely but possibly.
I realise I'm actively looking for patterns now, but here's another one: Priscilla -> Hodr. Hodr was a blind outcast and the god of winter. He's known as the god-slayer after being tricked into killing his brother by Loki. Priscilla is an abomination and outcast, and queen of a wintry realm. She's feared as a slayer of the gods.
I'll stop there!
I know that coffee table books have gone out of style these days, but I happened to come across the Larousse World Mythologies book, originally published as just "Mythologies" back in the day but I guess rebranded relative to other books in their series, in the book graveyard in the history building (where people ditch what they no longer want).
I have to say it would probably rank up there in fun but still meaty overviews of a bunch of different myth groups. I mention it because it's fun to look up a wide variety of things in a useful overall narrative condensed by someone who isn't just bullet-pointing separate takes on the subject. Free was a great price for it, of course, but Dark Souls has encouraged me to return to things that I loved as a kid.
Unused dialogue from...Queelag. NWS image.
Dark Souls Design discussion w/artists and Miyazaki
Via Adree and Charles. Seriously, go read it.
Not so much for the HAL analogy or the overall Seath thing, but I had never given much thought to the idea of Seath's spies.
Given that nothing in the game is placed without a reason, I can't imagine it's incorrect. Man, this game has got some serious layers to it.
edit: and since we get the channeler armor in a secret room which is the beginning of the path towards Seath's source of immortality, we can infer that the channelers do indeed come from the Duke's Archives.
I don't totally get the (good) end of Siegmeyer/Sieglinde. The basic premise is that Seigmeyer goes hollow and Sieglinde has to kill him, right? But if you talk to her before that, she says if he goes hollow she'll have to kill him again. Can you go hollow more than once? She traveled from Catarina to find her father because she knew he would go hollow and have to kill him? Why did she suspect he'd go hollow?
Huh, that sounds the exact opposite of the stereotypical Japanese design process.
Yep. That's what I took from it as well. It seems to have been a very western process in that it was more of a collaborative effort than the rigid top down structure that permeates and calcifies most japanese development houses. It shows, too, because there aren't a hundred little bits of the game I would point to and say "See? This? This right here? This is something that someone implemented from a list, and never told anyone that it sucked."
Doesn't it say somewhere that the 6 eyes of the channelers (as you can see on the headgear) are Seath's attempt to make up for his own blindness? Or well, was that here? Heh.
What a great interview. I found the bits about Ceaseless Discharge interesting because he did seem like a rather sad character but I had no idea he was related to the witches or why he was there. It's fascinating how all this stuff is connected. There is real thought behind everything placed in the world instead of the usual RAWR HERE'S A MEAN MONSTER!, here's some loot after you kill it, and now you never have to think about that generic encounter again. I fear the bar has been raised impossibly high.
I'm starting to believe in some theory along the lines of Sieglinde being imprisoned for killing her father, and only looking for him to kill him again. And maybe not even being his real daughter. I like the creepy undertones it gives to this line: I'm sorry he's caused you trouble… He has a knack for that. If he'd just stay put. And this one: But if you should happen to bump into him, tell hem that Sieglinde is on her way, and that he ought to just stay put. This line doesn't quite fit, though: My father? He went on his final adventure. Don't worry, that's just the way he is. Undead or no. Sort of reasuring, really.
But having to kill him again doesn't fit in with her just being a good daughter looking for her father. Unless he somehow went hollow before.
This line from killing Seigmeyer does imply that he at least has a daughter with a similar name. Heavens, me… My dear little Lin…
With all the weirdness in the story, I'm not sure why I'm so fixated on this part of it.
Edit: Oh, this is interesting
Edit 2: Or it's probably a reference to Scandanavian legend, but I don't see how that really fits either way. Unless you swap out her Dark Souls father Seigmeyer for her legend husband King Seigger, who she wants to have killed.
Seath doesn't kidnap ladies for the sake of justice.
I don't think anyone knows for sure what exactly Sieglinde means when she says "again." It's pretty hotly debated. What I do know is that I don't buy that she's just out to kill Siegmeyer or that she's not even his real daughter. Why is she so distraught when he dies if that's the case?
Is there a chance the "again" is a translation error? Anyone know where to find the original Japanese script?
I don't think so. It's either that she killed him once before he was undead or he went hollow before and she killed him then or something like that.
On my SL1 game I finally listened to all of Merchant's dialogue. I had no idea he went into detail about Yulia like that, and this is my 4th playthrough!
Video and images of unused assets in Dark Souls, including these handsome fellows.
Having read a little bit more about the lore of it, I find the design of Lower New Londo to be deeply disturbing and sad. I actually try not to think too hard about it when I'm down there because I get chills. I don't usually feel that way while playing a video game, but the idea of being in a place where thousands of people were sacrificed in order to contain some sort of great evil is affecting to me for some reason. I think the art design is just really effective. I get that feeling while walking through a cemetery in real life. I think this is a pretty high compliment to pay to a game?
You're 100% correct. The part that most disturbed me were the mounds of sludge near the front gates to the city. Or, what I thought were mounds of sludge until I looked closely and discovered they were piles and piles of corpses. The corpses of the people who tried to escape the city as it was flooding, only to find the main gate locked tight.
As well done as the New Londo Ruins are, I feel like they ran out of time with them. That area should have been as big as the Undead Burg and Parish area, like a full fledged township. You can see other areas in the background that suggest New Londo is just as large, but you can't get to them.
Well realistically none of those city areas are going to be a reasonable size. There are lots of inaccessible parts of the Burg and Parish too, and Anor Londo is basically a huge sprawling city in which you have access to one elevated walkway and a couple of buildings.
Most of which don't make sense (all the elevators and moving bits), although I could actually see the two layered, non-intersecting stairways actually being a legit architectural design choice.
The Demon Ruins and the (lazy) monster placement there is what disappointed me the most. It was such a cool place from afar, all red and foreboding and then it's basically ... a large flat plain with idling tauruses. Feels MMOish and player-centric in a way that most other locations don't (even though yes, I suppose everyone really IS waiting for me to walk into aggro range, but it's disguised better).
Dark Souls broad history pt 5 (other four in OP).
This guy linked some good articles I hadn't seen, so I will steal some or all of them for the OP here when I get around to reading them all.
It's pretty difficult to feel ok about killing Hawkeye or, to a lesser extent, twin tracers person. So, no, I don't agree with this.
I just mean that by the soul descriptions the firekeepers are not people anymore so much as twisted receptacles of humanity that personify the bonfires. I mean, I feel bad in the sense that I feel bad when I put down Artorias, in a sort of old Yeller kind of way, but not like when you kill NPCs who are inadvertently an obstacle or (like Sif) trying to protect you in their own dumbass way. I consider the firekeeper's female appearances to be a ruse as much as the illusion of Gwynevere.
I am considering the full dialog, as well as the transcription of the in-game dialog(at bottom of page) and his armor descriptions. To me, that speaks of someone on a parallel but different mission as driven by his beliefs, and because of the way he actively interferes with the player character I like to assume that he is simply unwilling to leave the choice of future to Random Hero X (as shown in the "moths to a flame", it's canon that he's dealt with others). So to me he is someone that has opted to wait out Gwyn's gradual decline rather than risk seeing him replaced with another overlord.
I think it's interesting because the game obviously makes him out to be villainous by making him so goddamn inconvenient the first time you deal with his antics, but he seems to me a noticeably more tragic figure than the serial killer in the last game.
So when I say heroic, I mean "on his own epic quest, and of equivalent agency as the player, and potentially just as good or bad given the limited information". As with Siegmayer, he requires you to progress even if your intervention eventually dooms him.
I dunno, I think that's reading a bit much into the generic firekeeper soul description.
And with quotes like:
"Not a bad tip, huh? A nubile cleric would be replete with humanity…"
"That keeper has served me well but... enough with her." (Sinister Laugh)
"Most fools have more humanity than they know what to do with, now. Who do you imagine will make the best use of it?"
Well Lautrec seems (now) like merely a selfish jackass with no particular plan other than surviving by feeding on others' humanity. More than a little bit unstable too!
And the armor dialog?
"During his solitude, he forsook everything,
for he believed in the goddess's love for
Smacks of vanity, and the cocky egotism he shows when you invade him. He seems like another tragic character (same as everyone else!), who once perhaps had a laudable mission but who has since lost/forsaken everything -- including whatever honor, virtue, and sanity he likely once had.
I see him as tragically once heroic, and a sign of what you could become, what those before you have become. Similarly for example the knight/merchant in Sen's Fortress, Siegmeyer, the knight with the Crest Shield, the Firelink guy in chainmail, etc. I think it's not a coincidence how they all have the same crazy laugh. They're not hollow -- but they're headed there.
I didn't realize until reading those Broad Histories on reddit that the arena where you fight Artorias is supposed to be the past version of the place where you fight Sif in the main game, and that same ravine that you cross to get to it is where you fight Kalameet. So cool
It actually isn't:
Separate names with a comma.