Diabolik Lovers Game Discussion.

It's no trouble. :)

I really do enjoy discussing the subject, though. Navel-gazing posts about my own personal reflexive reactions to videogames are something I could do all day.

Haha I actually said in a previous post that I actually can't handle playing games where you, as the protagonist, have to cheat on your significant other. It's for the same reasons you state, really... It hits too close to home and when it's an otome game, you have to put yourself in the protagonist's shoes to some extent. So yeah I actually completely understand.

Same reason why I can never choose the renegade options in Mass Effect and whatnot... >_> It just makes me feel bad.

I don't think the issue is that otome games can't have depth or be respected; it's that the context changes the meaning. If a story about rape and abuse is labeled a dating game (or to be more general, a romance), then I would assume the creators meant for it to be taken as romantic, whether or not that's how the game actually comes across. Authorial intent is not the most important thing when it comes to interpreting fiction, but it's helpful to know if this is a game that succeeds in portraying unhealthy relationships or a game that fails at being romantic but does something else interesting instead. Knowing that the creators label it an AVG gives me a slightly different perspective on the content.

Oh same here. I'm an utter bleeding-heart in any game with a morality system. I've gotta save alll of the pixel-people or I'll feel awful afterwards.

But if you don't punch her then she develops a grudging respect for you and she and Femshep look into each other's eyes and give a little nod and she goes off and actually helps you and and and...yeah. Call me a sucker but I love it when I can brainwash charm people into seeing things my way. It's a whole lot less messy. Besides, if you play it that way it's like you're romancing the whole world. I can change them all! Muahahahaha!

My brand of evil is more intelligent than yours.

Going off Nerys's point, going into a game that's set-up like an otome game (even if the authors don't class it as such) brings with it the preconceptions and mindset of playing an otome game: that successfully romancing one of the love interests is not only desirable, but essential. It doesn't mean that the game can't be substantive, but it colors the player's mindset as they proceed through the game. It runs slightly counter to how detrimental abusive relationships are, caught up in romancing, so to speak.

Not having played through the game myself, I don't know whether the game strikes most players that way. I'm hoping it's not.

You probably don't want to visit my Skyrim hell, then. ALLTHEDAEDRICARTIFACTSYESYES.

Don't remind me of what I had to do in order to get that Ebony Mail.

I'm so sorry. ;_;

Yeah... I've recently realized that, when it comes to collectibles in games, I tend to really fit the 'Dragon' part of my username.

Must... collect.. all the things...

I'm personally waiting for a particularly despicable individual to show up (my first choice, unfortunately, is part of a quest).

Haha, I got to sleep and wake up to an entire new page of discussion ^^

I just skimmed through everyone's posts since I'm in class, so forgive me if I say anything weird/misinterpret anything but I just wanted to post just as a final reply to everything.

Firstly, I really do like this discussion about the game. I myself have never really thought about these issues so in-depth before, so thanks to BF for giving a sort of 'platform' for this :3

Anyway, I wanted to add that I understood Chamomile's frustrations on the previous page. The discussion before was kinda going in circles, and when two sides keep going back and forth, it doesn't get us anywhere. I tried my best to come to a compromise and the posts by everyone also helped me in getting another perspective, which is always good. I do think that waiting for the LP of the game would be best in order to come up with your own conclusions about how it handles certain issues, but to everyone who tried to look at with an open mind – I appreciate it.

I understand the argument about how detrimental it is having a game that's considered to fall under the otome category exploring these issues, but to me I viewed DL as more of a visual novel. And I'd like to apologize for even calling it a romance game in my previous post a page back because tbh, it really isn’t. Also, I didn't even know it was labeled as an AVG. So thanks for that info Chamomile!

Yeah, so that's about it from me. If anyone has any questions about the game I'll try my best to answer since my Japanese isn’t all that great...

---> Randissimo, I just wanted to say your post about Kanato was spot on and you brought up a lot of great points, so thank you for that :)

That definitely wasn't my intent when i posted earlier, so sorry if you got that impression. I think you can absolutely enjoy the game for its qualities while not actually agreeing with what it tries to portray. So don't worry about that.

I think one main point that should be made that hasn't yet (or I haven't seen it yet):
The mindset behind the development of this game matters. If they indeed specifically made this game as a counter to the glorification of (mildly*) abusive relationship, it means you have to see it in this context. I have not played this game myself (nor do I intend to), but if I read the arguments being made about this game right, this game is made to make you feel uncomfortable at best.
This game wouldn't have worked the way it did if it was classified any different than otome, because that is the point of the game right? To criticise otome games on their unhealthy portrayel of what gamers (mostly women) should deem 'normal'. I think it needed to be classified as an otome to achieve this goal. You can't ignore the agency of an otome game, of course, and it's true that if you're still 'romancing' these guys, but with the context I'm given I tend to believe that the creators of this game were trying to put their finger on the sore spot.

I also understand the reason why people would feel so uncomfortable that they won't play this game. I am one of them. Chamomile, I get why you felt attacked but nobody seemed really 'aggressive' about it exept maybe one person. And that's probably because it hits too close to home, and we should be able to respect the kind of feelings that this brings out in her.

*This doesn't mean that I view abusive relationships as 'mild'! I just mean that the abusive relationships are very sneaky in how they are portrayed, as explained by Chamomile.

(Also please ignore any mistakes in spelling/grammar, I haven’t had time to check it yet.)

You're welcome. I just felt it had to be said since I'm tired of facing that kind of stigma in real life, and, well, it's unfair for anyone suffering from trauma and a mental disorder in general. It doesn't excuse his behaviour and I don't want people thinking that's what I'm doing, but it explains it and simply shows just how badly the event affected him.

I actually wanted to bring this point up before but didn't have the time, so thank you for doing that!

As you mentioned, I feel this game is a very powerful statement about the direction quite a few Otoge are going towards these days, namely the R18 rated ones.

I felt like it was pointing out exactly everything that goes wrong with that sort of game, and how badly it can colour the player's mindset. It was a wake-up call, basically.

It's like how there were a lot of Harlequin Novels that were basically "bodice-rippers": Abusive relationships portrayed in a kinky and fetishistic manner, as though that was the ideal relationship anyone should aim towards. Which is a bloody terrible message to give to anyone, especially impressionable young teens.

This game crosses the line purposely to slap the player awake. Now, if there are some people who are into this, well, this is a "safe" environment for them to revel in that kink without getting into that actual type of relationship in real life, so I really can't criticize the game for that, either. I mean, I have more of a problem with the original CDs than I do the game.

In fact, I have a LOT more problems with the CDs than I do the game. I found a translation of them, which is what interested me in the game at all, and it terrified me. The game, I find, has a very interesting plot and gives the character depth and explanation for their behaviour, and though it doesn't forgive what they do (nor is it supposed to), at least I feel less... Bothered by it compared to the CDs. Not saying the game doesn't bother me. Because it does. I'm terrified by it. But at the same time, it interests me precisely because of its nature.

The CDs as was mentioned earlier is more the "easy listening" type of thing, and there's not really much of an explanation for what they do. The impression I got was that their sole purpose was to cater to a specific kink, and that was it. The game is more of a study of the twisted psychological aspect of being stuck with that kind of relationship. It's much less forgiving overall to everyone involved, which is, sadly, pretty realistic. The consequences that happen are severe. The supposed "love interests" are psychologically damaged to a point where simply accepting and loving them as they are is destructive and counter-productive to helping them heal, but the protagonist is in no position to be able to help them in the first place anyway. The game isn't portraying romance, either: As stated before, it's portraying Stockholm Syndrome, and if you were lucky enough to make the right decisions, then the "love interests" starts developing Lima Syndrome towards the MC. And it's not healthy. And it's not trying to pretend to be healthy, either. Which I can respect. Because it needed to be said.

Of course, you'll end up coming across the misaimed fandom, though, which is, unfortunately, something that happens. (The misaimed fandom I'm talking about isn't made of the individuals who are into these kinks, because for the most part, those I have met who are into those kinks know full well it's not a healthy portrayal of a relationship and aren't pretending it is, either. The misaimed fandom is made of those who believe this really is romantic and that they can change the ways of the love interest.)

And now I'll stop talking because I'm not thinking clearly and probably said something stupid again. Sorry if I gave anyone a bad impression.

That's an interesting take, Randissimo. But I don't think you can blame the game and its developers for the mistakes it gets. You can put that in a long line of discussions about how 'pop-culture' influences 'real life', like with A Clockwork Orange. To me, what matters most is the agency and therefore the purpose of the game. And I'll say it again: I did not play this game, so I'm not an expert. I'm going completely on the arguments in this thread. And I believe that they have successfully made a case that this game is indeed a statement against this sort of thing.

I could be really biased though. I hate stuff like Twilight with the passion of a thousand suns, and if this Dialovers can be set in a tradition against shit like that I'm all for it.

So Diabolik Lovers is like the game equivalent of The Aristocrats?

I guess it does its part in terms of being the ultimate look into a vastly dysfunctional family, and I don't think anyone would even bat an eye at Diabolik Lovers if it were BL. Compared to the entire Nitro+ canon Diabolik Lovers is a drop in the bucket in terms of shock value, and gets its threatening power mainly from the fact that Yui is a female protagonist and unfortunate gender role implications come into it as a result. Just like how if Diabolik Lovers had the genders entirely reversed, it would become strangely empowering and more subversive in some ways, but less so in others.

Actually I would really like Diabolik Lovers if all the genders were reversed, I'm a hypocrite like that

If I could like this post a million times, I would.

Okay like. Seriously... Once you play the game, such awful shit happens that really there is no possible way the writers could have intended for it to come off as romantic. It makes you feel sick. It takes all of the terribly abusive, misogynistic things that other love interests do in other games and cranks it up to 10. --no, maybe 100.

Even on the "nicest" route, Subaru, he does such terrible things to you before he "goes dere" that I just couldn't forget that. Some people do excuse his behavior, though, and that seriously disturbs me.

I remember reading this one interview with Kaji Yuuki, Kanato's voice actor, and he was just like "uhhhhhhhh yeah uhhhhh I don't understand how anybody can like this guy, but I guess this is a fantasy, after all" I remember in one free talk for Yandere Heaven (so not totally related, but most of the Dialovers seiyuu did Yandere Heaven, too) the seiyuu was like "Do girls really like this stuff? Personally I think it's kind of creepy!" So I feel like the game has this self-awareness that makes it different and quite poignant.

I said the exact same thing on Tumblr in response to this fanart:



And got flamed the crap out of, haha. Oh well. |D;;

I wasn't speaking against the game. I'm kind of glad it happened. If I can't learn to at least know how to face these kinds of topics, I'm going to make for a terrible psychologist. Not just that, but it's a fascinating game, albeit for terrible, terrible reasons. What scares me is the fans who think this is okay. But that's a risk the company decided to take. But I agree with your point so much: If this game can start a new trend by countering those kinds of games, I'm all for supporting it. Heck, I'm all for supporting it simply for speaking up in the first place!

That's what makes me want to cry as well: The double standards. Nitro+ terrifies me with their canon. The only game of theirs I've considered playing is DRAMAtical Murder, and even then, I'm weary of the bad ends and that one route.

And the only reason I'd support a gender reversal would be to make a point about the double standard, but as it stands, I think I'd be sick anyway.

This. I'm disturbed people are willing to forgive this kind of behaviour. It's not a good sign. It's terrifying. And I relate to those poor voice actors, man, some of the material can be really disturbing and I haven't even listened to Yandere Heaven, I just heard things. And was scared off forever.

And it's a sad day and age when you get flamed for pointing out a glaring double standard.

Yeah, I get what you mean and I know it's not much, but I'm sorry with what you've had to face in regards to that stigma and I'm glad you can share what you have gone through. That shows amazing strength <3

One of my main problems with some fans of the game is their attempt to justify what these guys do to the protagonist. The thing for me with Kanato is that when all of his circumstances were revealed, I felt sympathy for everything he had to deal with and understood a bit better, why he is the way he is. But despite knowing his past, I couldn't turn a blind eye to what he does in the present to our protag, and same goes for all the brothers.

Stockholm Syndrome the game is the perfect way to describe it. I'm not that well versed in psychology, but this whole phenomena is really interesting to look at as a whole with not only this game, but the direction in which otome games will be heading towards in the future.

I don't claim I've gone through the worse, but it's grating and seeing friends who DO go through worse because of it just makes me want to flip a desk. And then people talking about disorders casually and applying it to anything because they don't really know much about it but think they do and-- Let me stop before I rage.

But thank you for your words, they're appreciated. <3

THIS SO VERY MUCH. It terrifies me to see this. To have such a warped view of what's considered okay in a real relationship, that never brings anyone anything good.

It really is. Like I said, despite how terrified this game leaves me, I am willing to buy it just to have a safe zone to study this kind of thing before I end up having to work with the real thing. I'm not playing this to disensitize myself, but so that I can at least gain enough strength to face it and not break down before doing anything about it. I'm going to have to study this anyway if I want to be a psychologist, so might as well familiarize myself early. Maybe not the best idea since I don't have the necessary tools to prevent myself from letting it affect me too personally, but hey, that's my own fault based on the decisions I make.

Ohh, sorry for the misunderstanding! I completely agree with you about seeing people being so flippant towards mental disorders and the stigmas that many people face in society, it's just awful. Yep I see it a lot, especially being in highschool, but nowadays it seems a lot of people think labeling themselves with a serious mental disorder is completely fine, when in reality, it's completely disregarding people who do have these disorders and have been diagnosed by a doctor instead of say...google.

Aww, no problem ♥

I think, for people who are studying psychology and the like, this game would be right up your alley. It does touch upon a lot of concepts in the psychology/childhood developmental field but at the same time, it's pretty disturbing. So, if you do plan on playing it then just try to take it in slowly and not dive right in lol. It's difficult to not let it affect you personally since this game kinda does push a lot of buttons, but if you go about it intelligently knowing what the general 'feel' of the game is - I think you'll be able to get through it. :)

Considering the fact I was in IB and kept hearing students in that program label themselves with OCD when they clearly had no clue how destructive it can be for an individual, I agree. We were in class one day and one of the students I was with said this: "My friend has OCD and he has to take a different route home everyday, it's so cool!" EXCUSE ME, WHAT? WHAT? ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING? DO YOU REALIZE HOW STRESSFUL IT IS TO FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TO TAKE A DIFFERENT ROUTE HOME EVERYDAY OR ELSE SOMETHING TERRIBLE IS GOING TO HAPPEN I CAN'T-- *FLIPS A DESK* *clears throat* So, uh, yeah. I regret not actually flipping a desk at the time, now that I think about it. Pity. I don't take well to jokes about mental disorders or trauma, for the most part. I take badly to people claiming they have a disorder when they don't know anything about it outside of what people think it is that they've been told. Like how I lashed out at a friend back in high school because they claimed they knew what Autism was and they simply recited the old, debunked stereotypes related to it. (No imagination, no empathy, the works.) I just rage people don't bother looking these things up on official medical sites. I know they're not perfect and they generally change them once a new discovery is made, but for God's sake, put some effort into trying. For all you know, the person you're talking to was diagnosed with it and is feeling ashamed of it now because you say it so flippantly like it's not a big deal and it's insulting and degrading and it hurts and I'm going to stop. Yes.


Yeah, that's the impression the game gave me once I started looking up more information on it. The CDs, on the other hand... Ummmmmmm...... Not so much. However, even if I wasn't going into psychology, I think the game would intrigue me. It's going somewhere and it knows what it's doing, and presents an interesting, albeit disturbing situation. Honestly, I just want to weep about the misaimed fandom more than anything.

Wow, I couldn't even list the number of people I know who've said they have OCD just so they could use it to be 'quirky' and 'different'. Like, they think OCD is something to take so lightly when someone who actually has the disorder would obviously rather not have it. If you're healthy, you should be grateful and not treat illnesses others have as if they're as simple as a common cold -_-

Your anger/frustration is completely warranted. And I really like reading your posts because it shows that you not only have the common sense to see how wrong that sort of behaviour is, but that you also can empathize with those who do have a mental illness and really feel for them. It's refreshing to read, so thank you for that ^^

The Diabolik Lovers CDs are more along the lines of catering to people with certain fantasies, I guess? The main reasons most people listen to them are because of the voice actors, dummy-mic or just simple curiosity imo. Yeah, for me I just found the premise of the game interesting but I went in not knowing much and was taken aback by the direction the plot went in. I still kept playing because it was like a messed up car-wreck I couldn't look away from :/

I had a long and thoughtful reply to all the conversation here, but then my browser ate it. So, have some quick points before I go back to quietly appreciating the conversation taking place here:

There is definitely a gendered element at work with this game, as DreadCop said. BL games have gotten away with a lot more than Diabolik Lovers does.

There's a wealth of things to look at in this game from a psychological perspective along with the sort of interesting things you can usually find about cultural attitudes towards how gender and sexuality intersect in this sort of media. Some of those subtleties will be lost on me initially due to not being apart of, or very knowledgeable of Japanese culture, but I'm hoping that there are others that will be able to point some of them out when we come across them in the LP. Chamomile. If not, then I can always read up on it.

When people take disorders and illnesses lightly it can make it that much harder for people actually dealing with them to decide to get help. At the high school I graduated from it was fashionable for a time among some of the kids to claim they had depression or harm themselves, and that made it incredibly hard for some kids, myself included, to decide that they should go ahead and get the help they wanted, instead of staying quiet, partially due to fears that they'd be written off or belittled.

Also:

I'm going into the game with a grasp of what it entails and I imagine it's still going to be a bit like a car-wreck I can't look away from. This game fascinates me in both room for analyzing the characters and the things being modeled, and it's a bit like watching a disaster unfold. And the dummy mic. I imagine if I get truly uncomfortable at any point playing the game it will be because of the dummy mic.

My exact response. I think it had to do with Emo subculture stuff, but I didn't even understand teenagers when I was one.

Eboby: That was a thing in my middle school. I don't understand why people think depression and self-harm is glamourous.
It is not.
It really, really is not.
And I get very angry when people think and say it is.

Having depressive tendencies fucking sucks, it makes everything around you seem negative, you can't muster up the energy to do very simple things, and the longer you're in it the more negative memories you end up retaining. Plus you're constantly afraid that talking about it will make everyone else taunt you for being "emo" or a whiner, or not say anything but secretly judge you for it.

I wouldn't want to be anyone else but who I am, but at the same time I wouldn't wish my brain on anyone. Between that whole chestnut and the apparently schizotypal way my mind works I've had to build up this massive wall of indifference in order not to get too invested in anything or anyone and I am terrified of what might happen if someone ever breached it. When it comes down to it I'm scared of trusting or putting too much hope in anyone precisely because I know that I'm naturally inclined to trust people at their word when I want to believe it, even if logically I know that most people are fickle, evasive, or lie about various things.

...I wouldn't wish my sheer level of trust issues on anyone either.

I think what most non-depressed people don't get about depression is that it's not about feeling sad or even feeling really, really sad, it's about feeling like you have never felt anything but sad, ever, and are incapable of feeling anything but sad, and any other emotion you think you feel is a lie. To the point where, when I'm in a bad episode, starting to feel happy makes me more depressed because my brain is all like, HEY REMEMBER HAPPINESS ISN'T REAL.

And yeah, forgetting to shower and feed yourself is the most glamorous thing ever. =/

I'm not sure if everyone knows this already but we have a thread for dealing with depression:
http://brokenforum.com/index.php?threads/dealing-with-depression.3515/

I don't go there because I (very fortunately) don't suffer from depression, but if anyone ever feels like talking about it, it's there.

I snapped and wall-of-text'd in the latest LP update about two things that were really bothering me. Posting the text wall here so that when someone inevitably decides that I'm full of shit--SPOILER: I probably am--and wants to call me out on it, that can happen in this tread instead of the LP proper.

I don't know enough about BDSM to comment on your points there, but I will strongly second your point about labeling things so people reading a story know what they're getting into. I know I've mentioned before somewhere that that's my biggest issue with 50 Shades of Grey (other than it being, you know, kinda shit): that when you take a specific fantasy and market it to a mainstream audience, it gives the impression that the fantasy is healthy, normal, realistic romantic behavior.

There are people other than 50 shades of grey who write this sort of thing in fanfic and label it BDSM instead of noncon? I... am so sorry.

... not that I am really in a position to apologise on behalf of fanfic writers, but I'm doing it anyway.

(It's been an awfully long time since I read pervy fanfic by anyone other than a handful of trusted authors. I must be getting old.)

I've mostly given up on reading anything with a perv bent to it that's written by anything other than a handful of authors myself, gegi. I think it's wisdom rather than just getting old.

I've also given up on clicking on something that has no mention of sex at all and not being hit in the face with sudden porn.

I just want everyone to label things properly. It's all I really want.

Thank you Eboby!

What I know about actual BDSM would fill a teacup but I do know enough to spot crappy works labeled as BDSM. I try to avoid them, they disturb me. :/

That was an /awesome/ analysis, Eboby. Is analysis the right word...? Anyway it was awesome.

But damn if Subaru isn't a dick. For some reason I thought he was actually nicer than his brothers. Nope.

Thank you, Eboby. <3 You are amazing.