Do dating games encourage an unhealthy view of relationships?

I think that romance novels and movies are worse than dating sims in the regard of unrealistic and harmful expectations of romance. That being said, the idea of "protagonist must wear these clothes and shape their personality and abilities in this way" has a troubling message when applied to a dating context.

It helps significantly when it's a visual novel where the protagonist clearly has a personality, though. For instance, in G-Senjou no Maou the game was in some sense less about the shoehorned possible love affairs and more about "Should I continue to be a manipulative, cold asshole or change slowly but surely for the better?" Which had the unfortunate side-effect of having most of the girls except the main one feel like hindrances or props to the plot, but I digress.

I do believe all sources of media influence the viewers, but the degree DEFINITELY varies per individual.

I can say from personal experience, though, that one of the reasons I play dating sims is because I figured it would give me a chance to experience a romantic relationship without having to fuck up real ones in real life due to my romantic orientation. (Let me stress I didn't find out my romantic orientation until earlier this year and I found out about dating games about four, maybe five years ago.)

That, in and of itself, is a problem. "Oh, this is a game that simulates relationships. It's a safe zone to pretend I'm in a romantic relationship without actually being in one. Sounds cool!" This was literally my mindset on the subject until a couple of months ago when I had a conversation with a friend who made me realize I was thinking like this.

This... Is not the best mindset. Now, I am pretty damn confident in my ability to distinguish reality from fiction, but there's still a part that brushes things off going "Naw, this is a pretty good representation." when, if you really think about it, it's a highly idealized and possibly false portrayal. I know stats and whatever isn't a realistic thing. I can't raise stats in my daily life, that's ridiculous, but like Mizu said, there are equivalents in real life that more than replace them.

I thankfully don't view my friendships like that, but I'll confess this has slightly warped my understanding of romantic relationships. It doesn't help I keep seeing people actively change themselves for their crush or significant other, which would explain my initial inability to recognize the problem, but that's not really an excuse.

This is why I like the romances in DAO. They feel more realistic. Even when I stay in character and lose disapproval, it doesn't mean "OH, THEY CAN NEVER LOVE ME NOW I MESSED UP" because there were other ways to make things work, even outside of gifts. There was a two-way conversation at multiple points. The characters asked for backstory at times which astounded me. They all had their critical points where they would break off and nothing could change their mind if you REALLY screwed up, and it was completely unrelated to romance, but more to the character in and of themselves.

So do I think most dating sims are influencing and giving false views of romance? Yes, yes I do. There are some good games out there that approach the topic well, and I find it a bit unfair to expect perfectly realistic portrayals of anything in fiction, but overall, yeah, they're not the healthiest thing ever. Most I can forgive and brush off as just a game, but that doesn't mean there isn't an influence or subconscious conclusion being made.

Of course, this is just my opinion, I don't claim to be right.

To go out on a limb, is it however a troubling message, or some actual 'truth in television'?

Different people like different things, and so they will like you (or not) depending on what sort of person you appear to be, and what skills you possess (or lack). If there's any question here, i think it's whether it's worth to shape your life around tastes of another person to be with that person, or to do your own thing and find someone who might be a good match for that. But that's the question anyone who plays these games can (and should) answer for themselves. If anything, the games offer a safe environment to experiment with these concepts.

The elephant in the room here of course is that for most of the things you can call 'dating games' they were made for a very specific market and have loads and loads of cultural baggage that Japan has about relationships and the balance of power between the sexes. I think most Western kids who pick up a game like that will be more confused by that stuff than inspired to copy it.

That is an excellent point as well. Culture tends to have a very large say in any kind of creative output.

I would also like to make entirely clear I am not dismissing there is a degree of effect - there always is. It's just contingent on who you are to start with, what your other sources of comparison is, how many you have, how your brain weighs these things... what is going on in any decision is hard to determine, so I guess if I should stop plaguing this thread with my ramblings I would say my answer to the thread title is a resounding:

Maybe. That depends.

To be honest a bigger thing about dating games is that a lot of people do feel like "Well, screw relationships in the real world, I've got the perfect waifu/husbando right here." Like that guy who married that LovePlus game, or a bunch of people on Tumblr. Of course, an important distinction should be made between "would have been fairly apathetic towards relationships in general anyways" and "using fictional relationships as surrogates out of fear of what relationships entail in reality", and there are plenty of people who have significant others who play dating games regardless. As long as people are able to have a healthy distance from their investment in fiction it's all gravy, but I think whether or not someone is likely to get too invested in fiction is less out of the fiction making them do it and more out of their own personal inclinations and situation.

It's not like people getting obsessed with fictional characters in media is any worse than people who fanatically stalk a celebrity's every move, anyways. It's just different manifestations of the same impulse.

For the record:

*SPOILER*

changing yourself to get a guy does not work. i learned this a few years ago.
i learned it from -- SURPRISE, SURPRISE -- dating sims.

I repeat, changing yourself to get a guy (or girl) does not work.

*/spoiler*

Likewise, trying to change the other person doesn't work either.

Out of curiosity, which one(s) was it?

Yup. Changing yourself or the other person for a relationship just leads to hard feelings down the road, or living a lie. It's when you change yourself for the sake of becoming more in line with the person you personally want to be that it's acceptable.

It's like the difference between "I want to learn how to ride motorcycles because holy shit that's really cool" vs. "I want to learn how to ride motorcycles to impress someone else". Sure, the latter might lead to "well now I've come to like motorcycle-riding for its own sake", but in general the latter is no way to live if you want to have your own identity as an individual. Life is too brief to be buffeted around purely by the whims of other people or to be an interchangeable cog in a machine. In the end no one will give you a medal for being a martyr for the sake of being a martyr.

Naturally this is a lesson I've learned from Gurren Lagann, Yakuza, Tenacious D, Theodore Roosevelt, and the more awesome people I've known. Not in terms of the lessons taught directly by those, even, but just people's reactions to the embodiment of those ideals. People want to look up to people who live according to their principles with a straight back and unending enthusiasm, underdogs who defy the odds and come out swinging. People wish they could go do that.

Well, it's not that hard. It's just a matter of how afraid you are and how much you feel rewarded by not staying true to yourself or expressing your opinions vs. how much you hate yourself when you're not honest to what you actually want.

Man, now I want to learn how to ride motorcycles. Damn you, DreadCop!

Don't. Cars are much safer.

It would be very hard to pull off I imagine, just as it is hard to make players care about the family of the player's character or their starting friends. The 'best friend' who dies in NWN2, for example, is one of those things that had zero effect on me. You'd have to try to force the broken state onto someone, and it would be pretty tough to do, without making it feel like a loss of control, or just irritate the heck out of the player.

And as for, 'does it have an effect', I'd say yes, but it's a subtle one, and probably would have less of an effect if not reinforced through other sources of popular culture as well. And something could probably be countered by actively talking it out with said young impressionable person.

Plus in general, real-life first-hand experience of human relationships tends to trump imaginary ones in terms of what people think of as truth.

That is an incredibly long list that I don't think I could ever remember well because I played so many for a long period of time.

But I do know that, funnily enough, Harvest Moon was the game series that gave me the mindset of "giving things to people will make them love you! Just make his favorite food and bring it to him and HE'LL BE IN YOUR ARMS IN SECONDS".

...come to think of it, anime taught me the same thing.
GLAD I KNOW THAT'S NOT A HEALTHY WAY TO THINK ANYMORE WHOOOO.

There's a group over here on BF that's trying to make a game with a yandere (read: mentally unhinged stalker) as the protagonist.

It's going to be awesome, I swear.

So many bad ends, though.

I wanted to peek in on this and throw my two cents, but in reading, I find that DreadCop has a brilliant way of putting my own thoughts and feelings into words for me, before I have the chance. xD

People have to understand the difference between reality and fiction, I think. What's a game mechanic made so there's something for you to play beyond static visual novel, and what is a real person or situation. I wouldn't say NO ONE does take from games 'this is a life lesson,' but I hope they realize sooner than later that life is not a game laid out before you and people are not always predictable.

On the other hand, if someone has/wanted to make a game that was not more game mechanic choices, but instead made it somehow feel very natural, I'd be very interested.

This makes me think about the little game I'm patchworking together with a couple others on site. I liek to think the way I've written my route so more is a lot more about how YOU would react and what he thinks of that, than pleasing him. If we ever finish, you guys tell me what you think. Of course, a mechanic is that one is going to lead to a more romantic ending than another. But still, in the main part of mine, I don't think you're ever pennalized for not trying to pander to him. Or least, I'm actively going to try not to make that happen much since this was brought to my attention...

I think pulling away from that old generic style would be excellent both from the standpoint of not perpetuating that 'make myself into your love' stereotype, and a better story to read/play by a longshot.

I wonder how much of this topic can simply be blamed on 'bad writing' rather than having any actual unhealthy views on relationships. Y'know, like making a game and then forcing some random person on the team to do the writing.
This comment is presented more as a point of curiosity rather than an opinion.

Also, I would love to learn how to ride a motorcycle and someday have one. I also wouldn't ever ride it in the area that I currently live in because no one knows how to drive here. If my Father is to be believed, a lot of motorcycle related deaths are the faults of cars not paying attention and motorcyclists not wearing proper gear.

I wasn't going to jump into this, feeling kind of unqualified to discuss dating Sims, but then a bunch of you brought up Bioware games and on that, comrades, I am an expert. But you've covered Dragon Age in depth so let's talk Mass Effect.

There's an effective and touching romance in the ME games, with Liara. Note that I rolled with a male Shepard, but I believe it works equally well with a woman Shepard. So anyway, here's a relationship that develops and matures over three games. Initially, Liara is kind of an introverted egghead, kind a typical "what is this thing you call love" alien. But she gets fascinated with your player character, initially as you relate to her Prothean studies but then as a kind of awe for the job you're doing, and how you do it.

But in the second game, when you meet her again, she's cold, distant. Not unfriendly but businesslike. You have to invest in the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC (yeah, I know) to find out why. She saw you die, dude. She loved you and then mourned you for three years. Gave your body to Cerberus in some vain fantasy that they can perform a miracle, and they do! And now here you are, walking around as if not a day has passed, and she can't handle it. And what happens if you die again?

Then in the last game there's a kind of resignation, a comfort that you fought the good fight and now you'll face the end, whatever it is, together. Liara prepares a time capsule describing your struggles - yeah, there's an element of hero worship there, but you are a goddamn hero, after all. In the end there's peace, for a bit.

I like this a lot. I stayed loyal to Liara through my saves because she earns loyalty. She is capable and intelligent, even deadly. She's useful in battle and resourceful as the new shadow broker. And she's cute, in a kind of blue, tentacle-headed kind of way.

I wish I could comment on Bioware, but the last Bioware game I'm familiar with is Jade Empire, where the romances really did feel kind of shoehorned in/were dependent on one or the other person conforming.

One thing I like about Biowaremance is that there is the option of building up a platonic high-level relationship with someone, and it doesn't necessarily feel like just an inferior version of romance. Then again, it'd also be cool if everyone not-taken and not necessarily a conventional winner had potential for a route (Black Whirlwind springs to mind.)

I guess the missing context is that my father was in a motorcycle accident earlier this year and I have no intention whatsoever of getting on one.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend actually doing motorcycle riding/racing unless you're fully aware of the sheer risk factor in there. Besides, regular biking, especially long-distance or mountain biking, is pretty hardcore in its own right.

Players seem to be allergic to NPCs 'telling them what to do' so i imagine that'd end in tears -- picture yourself DA2 Anders nagging you all the time about the mage issues, except in this game he is nagging you about your issues and so is, in one way or another, every other companion in the cast.
do not want

Heh, I was thinking more of FF8, where you're stuck playing the most annoying idiot, who just says the dumbest stuff all the time.

Yeah, most people don't want to play someone with huge issues that need to be resolved/catered to unless it's balanced out by sufficient badassery. It's like how everyone kind of hates Shinji from Evangelion even though he has about the same level of issues as Asuka, because people who are fans of mecha don't like being placed into the role of a weak-willed, emo wimp with daddy issues. It's like the exact opposite of a power fantasy.

Which brings up an interesting point: You can't blame everything on bad writing.

To mention Diabolik Lovers again, the writing is, from what I have sampled, very well wrought: The relationships the game portrays, however, are horrendous, as they are intended to be. And it's done well, but it's still horribly unhealthy, and there is no doubt to that. (Stockholm Syndrome with a dash of Lima Syndrome? Romantic. I want to cry.)

Now, from my perspective, the game is intended to show that those relationships are not good, because the protagonist changing herself for the love interest simply results in her survival rather than any actual healthy romance. If any romance at all. Unfortunately, some fans take those relationships as being genuinely romantic. And I don't mean people whose fantasies involve that kind of relationship, because most of those who do sport those fantasies know quite well the reality is different and aren't trying to convince anyone that those relationships are fine. I'm talking about the misaimed fandom who completely ignore the, ah, glaringly painful and horrible actions because somehow, the good moments outweigh and erase the horrible actions that were done on the heroine. Those fans exist. And it horrifies me because my God why would anyone think this is romantic I don't understand. (Someone please explain this to me. I'm sincerely asking here, I don't understand and I want to try to because it just. Baffles me.)

If a relationship is unhealthy in a game, sometimes you can say the writing was bad and the character was handled poorly, but often, the nature of the relationship in and of itself is. Just unhealthy. I don't have a particular example I can discuss at length at the moment (though I suspect Jin from The Second Reproduction will become a fantastic candidate once I finish his route), but generally, what bothers me is how those relationships are shown as being fine. I wouldn't say they're necessarily being encouraged, but having positive portrayals of such relationships certainly doesn't help.

This Loser Is You and no one wants to be that loser.

It's kind of like how people liking Rorschach is missing the point Alan Moore was trying to make, but at the same time he really is the most interesting character in Watchmen.

To me, I define it this way when it comes to those kinds of characters (I'll admit I never read/saw Watchmen so I can only go off what I heard): I like the character very much, but the person they are? Not... Really... I'm absolutely fascinated by who they are and what they represent, but I would not like being around that person and I don't necessarily like their opinions or actions. Nor would I necessarily agree with them, either. I find this distinction necessary, because I know that my reaction to them in real life versus how I view them within a fictious environment is completely different.

Okay, serious time.
I will very, very rarely see a DS that is done well. I mean, good writing with original characters instead of the same five goddamn archetypes (Softie/quiet, Tsundere, Shota, Stoic, Flirt) with the same goddamn "I have to win his affections by changing myself/I have to win his affections by changing him because goshdarn it, if he just didn't have those inconvenient familial issues/mental illnesses/hangups on old relationships/etc.!!" plot over and over again.
And I think that might be because there's more of an audience for the bad ones? How do I...
OKAY. You own a business. You badass, you. You're in charge of putting out Dating Sims. You could either put out the same shit with a different label over and over and please the audience and continue to make a profit or you could take a risk which could either go over splendidly or fail miserably, losing you customers and money. I think a big mindset is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Don't get me wrong, I would love and adore to see a good Dating Sim with a healthy view on how to build a relationship with another human being that could eventually progress to a romantic one. But I think this might be why there's such a large volume of "CHANGE HIM/ME TO GAIN THE ULTIMATE HAPPINESS" games out there. People like "going for a goal", so to speak, and feel rewarded when they do reach that goal, regardless of the means.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THERE AREN'T GOOD GAMES WITH GOOD RELATIONSHIP PORTRAYALS, i'm just sayin' this might be why they're kinda drowning in mediocrity/god awful what is this.

Sturgeon's Law is definitely in effect in this case, I agree. And though it's unfortunate, you bring up very good points, Mizu.

This is basically a vicious cycle.

The character you are romancing is also a very easy way to make the player feel like they're connecting with that character as the issues unfold. In fact, if you don't include some issues or insecurities in your character, it's going to be very hard to make them a memorable character. Moreover, in a relationship, both parties will have to change some because people are inherently selfish and so we hurt each other's feelings when we are in a bad mood or just through carelessness. If there isn't some sort of change in the character, it leaves people feeling cheated or like they aren't special or that they don't mean anything to the character. So there has to be some sort of balance because while you shouldn't try to change yourself to make someone like you, it is unrealistic if a relationship doesn't change you in some way. It doesn't matter if a relationship is romantic or not, it's going to have some effect on you, even if that effect is just something like you start swearing because your group of friends does, so you become desensitized to it.

So, as a writer, I don't think it's totally correct to say that we should do away with the idea of changing yourself or someone else with a relationship because that just makes for bad writing and a boring story. However, I think this can be done in a way that doesn't say we need to completely change who we are to make someone like us. I don't mean to brag, but I like to think I did that when I wrote Junko's route. I don't know, I haven't gotten a ton of feedback on it (*hint hint*), so maybe it creates an unhealthy picture of what a relationship is too, but I like to think that the correct choices aren't a product of twisting your personality around, but merely being a nice guy. I also don't think the niceness is just to get a girl, despite the premise of the game, as the player character is shown to be glad he's being nice for its own sake several times. (Guys, help me, I can't stop pimping my own writing.)

I have some other points, but I'm beginning to feel a little lightheaded and realizing I should probably eat something, so I'll save them for later. Or, you know, never. I hope people aren't starting to get annoyed with my walls of text.

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