So after the disappointment that was KOTOR2 I decided to follow-up with what's generally regarded as Bioware's weakest RPG. Time to complete my Bioware game checklist. Actually, I never did finished the last level of Shattered Steel. I'm writing this having just started chapter three. This game is clearly the precursor to Mass Effect. Yes, the animation is terrible but you can see the beginnings of the cinematic experience forming. I suppose KOTOR had an element of this, but the more direct control of Jade Empire made me think of this in a way KOTOR did not. Let's hit the biggest issue first. The combat isn't great. It was hit in reviews a lot at the time I think and it's what stopped me early on several years ago when I first played. I don't know if I've got better at this, or if Tiger Strike is simply better than Thousand Fist Whatever, but I've waltzed through fights I struggled with last time. I'm playing at Grand Master due to being Part Of The Problem, as well as the fact that without the challenge it all feels a bit pointless to me. The issue is that there's not much to it. There's talk of harmonic combos, but not only can I not get them to work, I can't see where I'd use them anyway. It's far easier to flip around the combat arena (which is a ridiculously small and zoned area), roll into the enemy to stun him and then spam your attack until he's dead. Repeat until everyone's dead prioritising range, then weapons, then fists. Focus seems pointless, as weapons do not work on spirits you're far better investing in the method which works on everyone: fists. So it's all about health and chi and if it weren't for the odd enemy who stun locks you I wouldn't bother with health either. Chi is just so powerful, it seems to heal on a 1:1 ratio as well as providing a damage boost. It's offence and defence in one package. Every so often it has its moments, fights where you recover from a losing position, or enemies whom you need to employ hit-and-run tactics on and you feel smart for figuring it out. Primarily though it's dash in and spam. I also find NPCs generally pointless. while the odd early fight called for some NPC distraction, I think in 95% of cases having Dawnstar regenerating my chi is superior to any other setup. Chi is just that useful, and as you can kite enemies so long as your patience lasts and health and chi don't regenerate outside of fights, I don't see a reason to go with anything else. If health and chi went back to maximum after a fight I might feel I had more flexibility. There's also the fact that they keep introducing NPCs in ways that shows them to be deadly. Then they join your side... The pacing suffers from the same issue most RPGs have, and that Bioware didn't really solve until Mass Effect 2: the civilisation and wilderness problem. That is you will be introduced to a large hub with lots and lots of talking, and then proceed to do several quests with lots and lots of fighting. There's a real lack of balance between the two. The air mini game is, as far as I can tell, a waste of space. Money is ridiculously easy to come by because you can only use a tiny number of gems, so you sell the rest and have more than you could ever need. There are some positives though in areas I didn't expect. Firstly, I actually want to get to the bottom of matters. Okay, not for the story reason of destiny and all that yawn inducing rubbish, but rather Another is Bioware's precursor to Paragon/Renegade in the Open and Closed fists. While it doesn't always work, sometimes doing dickish things for no reason gets you closed fist points, which doesn't seem in keeping with their ways, but it's still a refreshing change from the light and dark sides of previous games. I especially appreciate the ability to meaningfully explain my POV rather than just being a douche. I'm playing closed fist and it's surprisingly satisfying. Loot is surprisingly fun because it's so simple so I don't have to spend time fiddling with it, yet it feels like I am getting to make somewhat interesting decisions with my limited slots because of the fact that any gem can go in any slot, rather than just exchanging a +1 shield for a +2 shield and a +1 helm for a +2 helm, etc. I really like how when you mouse over conversational responses your character's facial expression changes so you can see the tone the response will be given in. It's surprisingly helpful. Also the NPC conversations are better than expected. Okay, Dawnstar's are, because the number you can take with you is pitiful and so I'm making it the childhood buddy adventure. I like the way conversations let you challenge her ideas, and even if it routes you back onto the main dialogue path the response the options you get to reply to her can change depending on what you said earlier in the dialogue. I can't help but feel that it's actually doing what KOTOR2 tried to do, but better. While it remains to be seen what effect if any this has, I feel like I'm slowly changing her views, and as long as I feel I am what's going on underneath doesn't matter. The rest of the NPCs might suck though, it's hard to say because only one NPC at a time is ridiculous. Dawnstar talks about things we've done as we clear up areas, if the other NPCs talk about them too I hate to think how much content is sitting locked away never to be seen. I think it might be their weakest game, but I'm still having some fun with it.
http://brokenforum.com/index.php?threads/lets-play-jade-empire.3376/ There was LP of it for those who want to know more without actually suffering the tedium. I summon Joie de Combat for the opining!
The thing I hated most was probably how useless the companion people were in a fight. As you say, the 'have someone sit there and buff you' thing is the only worthwhile thing they can do since their damage is completely pathetic.
This is actually my favorite Bioware game. The combat isn't too great compared to actual action games but it's better than the boring-as-shit pausable real time systems they'd used up to that point. The setting is pretty cool and the story and structure of the game are the same in every Bioware game, so setting and combat are the only things to really differentiate them. Really the only problem I have with JE is that every time I try to replay it it just makes me want to play God Hand instead.
Yeah, I think Bioware learned its much easier to do decent FPS/TPS shooting than it is to make a decent fighting game / beat-em up. Or to put it another way, mediocre shooting is more fun than a mediocre beat-em up.
Wait, there are people who think Jade Empire is weaker than Neverwinter Nights? NWN may have enabled an interesting mod community, but the OC itself was unbelievably boring.
Bioware haven't ever done an FPS. No, third person cover combat is not the same and you should be ashamed. I would love a Bioware RPG in an FPS (say, STALKER) instead of a cover shooter. It has the advantage that you could automate the combat and watch cool shit happen with your chosen party... you might be right though, NWN was actually incredibly shit. No, I agree, you're right, NWN is their weakest entry. Now I'm ashamed. I can't believe I forgot, it's why I didn't really play a Bioware game after Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal until Dragon Age was released.
Mass Effect 1's cover system was so terrible that it wasn't worth using, so it was basically an FPS played from a TPS camera angle. Also, when your using a scope, the game becomes an FPS.
Hordes of the Underdark made it two people from one. I haven't reached that expansion yet, I stalled somewhere in the first expansion, which was itself a big improvement over the original game. No. No it was not. The change in situational awareness and how it changes what cover means to you is simply massive. In one cover is godlike because there's no downside, in the other cover is a trade off between safety and situational awareness. In one you're checking your surroundings, in another you can always see your surroundings. And no, using your scope did not make it an FPS, unless you have some incredibly strange outlier idea of what it is to be an FPS.
ME1's cover system was awful, and entirely unnecessary, I played the entire game without using it, and didn't have a difficult time doing it either.
I don't disagree with you on that (indeed, the higher the difficulty the less you want to stick to cover), but it doesn't change my point. I said cover, not sticky cover.
I think my point still stands that ME1 was a FPS played from a TPS angle, since using the sticky cover was actually a detriment which is why I called it a FPS/TPS. But we're off the rails anyway. So, uh, have you got to the 2D shooter portion of Jade Empire yet?
No, it's not, even though you seem to think for some bizarre reason that cover systems are what separate the two. Deus Ex HR is an FPS with a cover system. Rainbow 6 New Vegas is an FPS with a cover system. What differentiates them is perspective and the huge impact this has on how your approach combat. Bioware suck at minigames.
Oh really, so in a FPS game, you move from cover to cover, and shoot things. In a TPS game with a non-existent cover system, you move from cover to cover, and shoot things. Don't get caught-up in the details. There are a bunch of games that go from FPS to TPS with a push of a button, and while yes, it does change the gameplay, it does not fundamentally change the game. You can mod Counter-strike to be third-person. Hell, we put in a toggle for first/third person for SW:Battlefront, and toggled you to first person for a bunch of the vehicles. In much the same way, ME1 wouldn't change much if it had such a toggle, which it sort of does, since you can just zoom and run around that way. *Yes, in the case of CS, which is in the land of uber-competitive folks, it might change things a bit more, but in a game like ME, where you only fight lackluster AI, it matters very little.
In an odd act of unintential consanguinuity, I also started playing Jade Empire this weekend. I agree with the OP to a great extent: flawed but not terrible combat, standard Bioware fu in terms of plot/pacing, better than most moral system, and a cool setting. Also, I do enjoy that niggling sense that Master Li is *up to something*...
I think I'd really like them to revisit this setting (I had watched Ingmar play through this Long Ago, the combat seemed so lame I didn't bother trying to play it).
My experience with the game was that closed fist started out being pretty interesting but eventually devolved into bioware's patented puppy kicking version of evil. However! The closed fist ending is truly epic in that it keeps raising the stakes of just how evil your main character can get. I recommend trying it out at least once.
Yeah the world-building aspects are pretty great I think, and the usual other trappings are there, but the combat and in particular the tiny party size are big problems. They could probably do better on that given another try, of course.
I already covered why they're different. Please respond to that point, don't continue to post things I have already explained why I disagree with as though they'll move things forward.
My only memory of this game was choosing good options all the way through until the ending. It was kind of fun to play a little "Mwahaha I fooled everyone" inner monologue, but a little disappointing that every single decision I had made up to the last one didn't affect the ending at all.
Have I mentioned how much the NPC necks are freaking me out? Because they are. Also, Bioware don't seem to know which of their fights are difficult and which are not. I just won the silver league and the final fight was far easier than any of the silver challenges. And fuck cutscenes before fights, which in Jade Empire is every goddamn fight. It's impossible to make meaningful choices before fights because enemies keep cutscening out of nowhere.
Seeing this thread reminds me I have a copy of Jade Empire on Steam and I have never played the game. This may be the only Bioware game I haven't played, actually. Guess I should remedy that.
I'm not entirely sure it's worth it. I have better games in my backlog I think, but I'm a sucker for Bioware.
I'm ... kind of a sucker for Bioware, at least for stuff like KOTOR and Mass Effect. But even the other stuff I'm not wild about, mainly the fantasy-based stuff, is really well done and I've enjoyed playing. I remember thinking this game looked so odd that I couldn't really get excited about it, but I do feel like I should at least give it a fair shake. If I don't like it, well it wouldn't be the first game I've uninstalled after half an hour.
There were only two good things about Jade Empire. First, it had the darkest, nastiest 'dark side' ending of any game Bioware has ever done. Crueler than ordering a wookie to off his best buddy. Second, it had Henpecked Hou. FUCK EVERY OTHER THING ABOUT THAT GAME. DOUBLE FUCK SPIRITS WHO CONSTANTLY ATTACK YOU FROM OFFSCREEN AND YOU HAVE NO WAY TO TELL IF THEY'RE FIRING THE UNDODGABLE SHOTS OR THE UNBLOCKABLE SHOTS AT YOU UNTIL THEY FUCKING HIT YOU FUCK THAT FUCKING SYSTEM FUCK THAT GAME!
It shouldn't. At this point that's practically a warning label for shovelware. So when games right on the threshold between mediocre and bad like JE and Fable 3 pick him up it doesn't necessarily mean you'll want to endure what it takes to experience that twinge of Python nostalgia.
Eh, if you ignore the entries on that list where he's voicing a character he played in a movie or TV show (which is most of them), it's not much of a trend. Also, I think Fable 3 is great and Jade Empire is ok.
I still think someone who self-identifies as being a fan of Bioware games should give Jade Empire a shot if they find it really cheap and have some time to kill. You can see some glimmers of good ideas in there underneath the fortune cookie version of Ye Olde KOTOR Alignment Formula, if you stare really hard, and ultimately it's valuable as a transition piece to some of their better ideas. I'd say my recommendation goes as far as saying that you should play some of it and not feel guilty if something better comes along. That's correct, if you ignore many of the bad games he was in, he wasn't in that many bad games. My only point is that being skeptical when you hear "John Cleese was in it" is probably a sounder approach than being excited. Good on him for getting paid for phoning in performances and writing from the same mold across dozens of entertainment-ish products. Ah. Then it is more serious than I thought. Thank you for clearing that up.
Maybe I should clarify that I mentioned it less as a "oh man you have to play this game" than as a "if you're right on the edge of playing this game, maybe a couple of Cleese brand yuk-yuks will be the last .01% needed to make it worth your while.
Technically, the only thing wrong with Jade Empire is the combat and its associated stats/inventory stuff. It's pretty, it's got a high adventure story with a fresh setting, it's got Bioware characterization. It's just that combat is half the game.
After allowing myself to be distracted by other games I finally got around to finishing this. It really suffers from putting most of the awesome content at the back-end of the game, chapters 4 onwards were a general improvement over what came before with much more focused maps and so less tedious traipsing around the map. It also starts to involve the entire party and makes me wish once again that RPGs like this would find a way to use the large teams they put together (Mass Effect 3 at least improved on this with its banter between the crew on the ship). Most of all you start to feel like you're making meaningful decisions on a regular basis and shaping the game, rather than just moving into yet another mob fight. I couldn't take the combat any longer and somewhere in chapter 4 (the Jia fight I think) I changed it to Student because fuck unskippable cutscenes. Silk Fox seemed a little all over the place. Due to my early start using Open Palm and only later converting to Closed Fist I think I missed the chance to turn Dawn Star to Closed Fist. Damnit! It carried one thing over from KOTOR, and that's the lame ass outro.
