Discussion in 'Dating/Otome - Broken OKCupid' started by Tome-Chan, Nov 7, 2012.
I choose B. DIRECT QUESTIONING GO
B! or C.
B seems a little more confrontational... so... B it is!
B. Ask directly!
B!! GRAB THE BULL BY THE HORNS.
B, gotta keep the assertiveness up or it might wither away!
Also I forgot to say this ealier, but... Lysa's dad x Koichi's mum OTP. They deserve each other.
B. NO QUESTIONS.
This update is making me think however, when Koichi started talking like an asshole about things like "I'm the husband so I'm the one in charge" it made me him cut some slack because I thought "All right, he was raised like an asshole so that's why" even if he actually started to be a decent human being before the dinner. So I was considering the point of view Nekochi mentioned before about him acting like that because he doesn't want to let himself care or get involved. While still hating him.
THEN HE DECIDED PEOPLE FROM THE COMPANY CAN'T VISIT LYSA. I'm still willing to consider that Koichi is doing this because they decided to take the marriage more seriously, so both of them should forget about Ebi-chan and Mysterious Woman, but I really have a bad feeling about this. Not even her friends can visit her.
I'm glad Lysa is seing reason? Though I expected a bit better from Ebi-chan - I'm talking about the embrace part.
B. All the way.
The thing that gets me about this is that Koichi doesn't know about Ebi-chan. At most, he maybe suspects Lysa might be closer than he'd like with someone at her workplace. That, and she's worked there for, what, eight or nine years? So when he's saying "no one from there visit," he's not just shutting out a bunch of impersonal casual acquaintances, these are people she's known for quite a while, including Akiko, a friend from high school.
So even if he is doing it with the intent that they focus on fixing their marriage, it's still controlling and abusive behavior to unilaterally decide, without consulting her, to cut off her access to anyone but himself and their parents.
I'm assuming that he saw Lysa and Ebi-chan and that he doesn't know much about Lysa having friends in that company since they never actually talked - so maybe in his mind he's just sending Ebi-chan away and letting Lysa rest by not having people reminding her of work. Otherwise he's just getting worse and worse, even if this sucks regardless of how much Koichi knows. I'm mostly trying to understand his point of view, because I already decided that Koichi is an asshole many updates ago but Nekoichi made me wonder if I shouldn't give him a chance as a character instead of just hating him.
(Not working by the way, I keep getting the feeling that he knows exactly what is he doing and I will always hate him.)
I don't hate Koichi. I hate his actions and I loathe the way he was raised. But I am not happy with the direction this is going in. Not one bit.
B. I'm too happy with the fact being direct has gotten us good things to ruin that now.
Another vote for B. Avoiding things will only make it worse, after all.
See, my impression all along was that it was Lysa's mom who saw them, because of her phone call and her gentle nudging for Lysa to confide in her which sadly went nowhere - it didn't seem to me like Koichi would have let it pass so completely if he'd seen them, especially during the subsequent confrontation over his own cheating. (I don't think Tome-chan included it but there was a line from him during that discussion about how he'd assumed Lysa was going to be more submissive and just let him call the shots and oh, well.)
But even if he did see them, to go behind her back block any visitors from work without saying word one to her about it is still a dick move. Especially in the context of the ongoing pressure on her to quit her job.
I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm trying to understand why he does certain things, but I'm not excusing him for that. I'm expressing myself badly today >_<
No, it's okay! Sorry if I misunderstood or anything. This route certainly seems to evoke a lot of strong feelings, and of all the things he's done so far, that particular action of Koichi's really got under my skin because it just seems like an attempt to isolate her. :c
okay you know
YOU KNOW WHAT THIS WHOLE THING HAS PUSHED SO MANY BUTTONS
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BUTTONS AND I AM A SOBBING WRECK AND
I KNOW I SAID I WOULD TRY TO TYPE PROPERLY BUT
fuck you koichi, i know what you're doing
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. pick b please.
EDIT: Okay, now that I can type coherently.
Honestly, the sudden mood-change with Koichi feels less like "i'm going to be a more wonderful husband" and more like "I'm going to change your mind about divorce because it benefits me and our parents. Also, I'm keeping your work friends from visiting you because I'm going to make you quit that job, what's the point in seeing them. NOW LET'S MAKE CHILDREN because not only will it be harder to divorce if there are children in the mix, you know you wouldn't be able to support yourself and a child alone good luck single parent good luck".
Koichi is manipulative. And I hate it, because I've been on Lysa's side. Maybe not in regards to marriage and kids, but just....ugh. UGH. PLUS, this guy thinks it's totally okay to have a mistress on the side. But think: what if something happens and he ends up knocking up the mistress? That's a whole 'nother can of worms. I just...I can not support staying with Koichi. There are way, way too many things against him.
In Koichi's defense, I can believe that at the very least, seeing her get hurt protecting him from getting hit by a car may have made him realize "shit, I actually have a really good thing here, I should try to not fuck it up!"
But at the same time, if this is the only way he can figure out to express that then it's still destructive behavior on his part. And in some ways that's even worse because it means this is him actually trying and the result is still harmful instead of beneficial. No matter how good his intentions may be, for her own well-being Lysa still needs to get out of this marriage.
I'm also not excusing him for anything he's done (even though I may have come off as a bit of a Koichi advocate), but I still kind of feel sorry for him because his upbringing must have sucked. He seems like he doesn't really know how to connect with people and I'm starting to develop a headcanon about Koichi having Asperger's Syndrome or some other form of high functioning autism because his social skills are just so bad and I really just think he needs to go for some counseling. (By the way, I have some experience with AS, so I'm not saying he has it because he's acting like a dick and I think people with autism are dicks or anything, but because there are just several things that he's said or done that remind me of AS. For example, there's the way he just kind of says things without thinking about how they affect other people and he makes decisions for people as if he assumes that everyone will feel the same way as he does, so there isn't even any point in asking. I mean, it doesn't even seem to occur to him that having an affair is something that might bother Lysa until she says it does.)
Again, it's possible that I'm reading too much into things, but Koichi's life seems like it must be very sad and I kind of want to give him a hug. I'm really, really interested in seeing his route and I hope you will choose to play it because I don't have a phone that can play these type of games.
Also, I choose B because now that Lysa has more of a backbone and has stopped having an affair, she's a lot more tolerable and I'd like it if she were to stay that way.
I would like to point out that, while your arguments are both valid, it's also possible that Koichi does not care.
There have been lots and lots of little things that he's done that have me wondering why Lysa hasn't already filed for divorce. He's cheating on his wife. When confronted about it, he says it's okay. He cuts off all ties to her work friends for reasons that have not been explained (yet) when she gets hurt. He only pays attention to her when he wants something from her, whether it be sex (for the sake of MAKIN BABIES) or breakfast. I mean, that in itself is another thing; when Lysa expresses her desire to leave, he doesn't say "oh no, please don't leave, I love you". He says "Who will make me breakfast?"
If he truly didn't know that what he was saying was hurtful, he wouldn't suddenly turn around and be a nicer guy. Something about that just seems way, way too off for me. It's impossible to learn, in a matter of hours, how to be a nicer person to others unless you knew from the start how to be nice. If it were a steady showing of him really trying to be kinder to Lysa, I could get behind that. Instead, he was an outright jerk for a loooong time and only changed his mind once it became clear to him that this "goal" he has was in jeopardy.
He does not see marriage as a loving binding between two people.
He sees it as a business transaction.
This man should not be married.
I hope all of that made sense.
I want to counter argue why I don't think Koichi has AS but I don't have time, so I'm saving this slot for when I get back home. (No worries, Nekochi, I'm not mad at you, I just disagree. Mostly because I have daily interactions with numerous people with various degrees of AS and I just don't see him with it. But I'll delve into that later.)
And I am agreeing with you, Mizu. This man should not be married to Lysa. Maybe he's different with someone he actually cares about, but fuck. Just. No. Again, details later when I have time.
It did! And I agree with you on the important points. I'm not a hundred percent sure for myself whether Koichi straight up does not care, does not care enough, or cares (possibly has just begun to care) and is simply incapable of handling a relationship with another person on anything near this level. But whichever one it is, the result is the same: just as you said, he does not need to be married, and Lysa needs to not be married to him, especially given her own difficulties in asserting herself and expressing her needs.
Yeah, no. I'm not buying the story that he suddenly decided to be a ~~good husband~~
However, I also believe that his upbringing might be a bit fucked up. Saying this from a close experience here - I've seen what happens when your own mother firmly believes that women have 'a place' during marriage, be that of the mother or housewife or whatever. It kind of screws up with the mind of a kid, especially boys - they're led to believe being 'in charge' is expected of them, and that they are 100% right at all times in every decision inside a relationship (or even with just any woman, really).
This does not mean I condone it. Quite the contrary. As of this age, it's evident these things are not true, and it's easy to find people who will disagree with this way of thinking. Problem is: Lysa is growing a backbone here because she's realizing that being submissive is not getting her anywhere. Koichi on the other hand has -by the looks of it- always been a dominant person, and being dominant is usually seen as a good thing. So for him to step back and realize he's doing wrong is going to be a lot harder than for Lysa to see her selfworth.
I've lived (and am still living) through something similar to the way they both were raised (particularly Lysa), and it has had different results on me and my brothers; effects I see even today. It's a long process to go through to change someone's mentality - I've been doing it on my own my whole life. But no one deserves to be bound to a person with such toxic behaviour, especially if it was not on their own accord.
That said, I JUST HAVE MANY FEELINGS ABOUT THIS ROUTE AND MANY OF THEM ONLY SERVE TO FUEL MY RAGE.
Oh trust me, I've had plenty of interactions with AS too. My older brother has it, so I know what it's like to live with someone who has it every day. I can respect that you disagree though and I probably am going too far in my interpretations of him, I just can't believe there would be a route for him if he was a completely terrible person. I'm a writer, so I like getting behind the characterization to the why and how of what a character is like, so I guess I just find Koichi to be an interesting character. Trust me, if this were real life, I wouldn't subject myself to this sort of treatment and I don't think that it's a healthy relationship for Lysa to stay in at this point.
I still hold by my statement that he seems to have had a sucky upbringing though and he deserves a hug for that.
I don't know, I'm not sure I've managed to explain myself very well at any point in this thread.
Can I just say that I agree with 99.9% of what you said and that I think you expressed many of my feelings way better than I have?
Yeah, I don't disagree with you here and that's why I've said that I want to play his route to figure out what the hell his thought processes really are.
It's worth noting that in the poll results image I posted a while back, Koichi rated third after Ebi-chan and Aiba (and way ahead of Genji) so clearly there is something to his route and I'd really like to know what.
Oh, don't worry, I didn't think you were stating it out of the blue and I wasn't offended if that's what you're worrying about. I just don't see it as this being a case of AS because I know numerous people with varying degrees (one of them a sibling as well), so having seen different shades, this doesn't fit, in my opinion.
I do agree his upbringing was probably terrible. I feel for him on that point, I am. But in terms of his treatment of Lysa, explanation or not, it's not justified and I can't stand it. And I feel bad for him because that will probably fuck up his relationships forever if he can't change that manner in treating people.
As a potential writer myself, I get where you're coming from, too. I'm just furious because I've seen this situation too many times. I know people like Koichi. I don't hate them either, but their actions hurt. So yes, this game hits a bit too close to home, and dampens my ability to fully sympathise with Koichi because my anger overpowers that side of me, albeit more in a disappointed and depressing type of anger.
There is a module for a game called Neverwinter Nights.
The module is called "A Dance With Rogues".
The canon love interest rapes you at the start of the game. And makes jokes about it through more than half of the game.
There are routes out there for completely terrible people because that just appeals to some women.
Also, they probably change how the person is perceived depending on which route you pick. I doubt that they keep him being this much of a jerk should you decide to go for his route.
Yeah, that was the way I saw it when I started playing other routes, his a$$hole tendencies are stronger or weaker depending on the route, and I won't spoil but one of them has the LI help Lysa get back at him a little in a hilarious way ❤
They basically made Koichi the bad guy for many routes because in Japan it is still pretty shocking to get a divorce, so they needed something so bad that it would take away all guilt.
His route (I played it using my basic Japanese skills) was actually quite sweet. In his route he is more like a tsundere with extra helpings of tsun, but the dere does make up for it (in his route at least.)
Now that I've played the other routes, I've realized the equivalency in this game.
Super squee worthy Ebi-chan=extra bitchy Koichi.
It's high risk, high reward for this route, but the others are different and full of otome feels as well!
Now that the Ebihara route is almost over, do you guys want me to continue on with Genji or Aiba, or Kiyoto? I'll hold a voting when the route is finished if you do ❤
Edit: Not excusing his actions in this route AT ALL, just saying that it's kind of like Uncle-chan in My Forged Wedding. Your his niece in every route except his, then omg not related!!! It's totally weird and mind-bendy but that's how the otome world goes sometimes.
I have played all of them at this point, so I don't wanna weigh in too much, but for the benefit of others' decisions I can say I suspect that the other routes will not be nearly as polarizing as this one - Aiba's and Genji's in particular. (Kiyoto's made me pretty uncomfortable. But Aiba's is precious and might be a nice antidote to all the extreme emotions this route has evoked.)
Is it still way too early to vote?
I don't care whether we do Aiba or Genji, I like them both, I just don't want to do another route where we have to cheat like Kiyoto's.
This. Also, at this point if there is a route where we can see more about Koichi it could be useful. I'm sorry, still hating him. Too many button pushed at the same time.
I'm so sorry, but this automatically came to mind.
Please feel free to kick me in the face immediately.
Heavy risk...but the priiiize...
NSFW, I guess.
Jacob! :D Sorry, I'm just deeply fond of Jacob for some reason even though I've never done his romance myself because my Shep sounds like a creeper when she talks to him.
Hahaha this is also why I never did his romance. XD I just couldn't deal with Shep draping herself seductively all over the armory every time I tried to stop by to check in on how he was doing.
I was okay with Jacob in ME2. Didn't really like him, didn't dislike him.
And then ME3 happened and now I just kind of don't like him and never will.
Every time I hear about something from ME3, I get happier that I decided not to play it.
Heh, yeah, it kinda killed any potential romance with him for me. I was interested in his romance too (I go for nice and professional guys more often then not) until Shep opened her mouth and then I was just worried about Jacob reporting her for sexual harassment. I do make sure to at least get all my Sheps, male or female, to the point where they can get the fist bumb/hug from Jacob though. Just doesn't seem right otherwise. :)
Yeah, I haven't played the third game yet but I heard about that. That's the other big reason I haven't done his romance.
Here are some screenshots and CGs to help with the voting process if anyone wants sneak peeks!
Not gonna lie, this is still my favorite thing.
Do we need to cheat to do Kiyoto's route? UNFAIR. There are not enough good teasing routes out there.
Separate names with a comma.