I saw someone in MWO the other day named "Balls Mahoney". Had to share, because it was too damn funny -- which one of you jokers was it? ;-)
Still not seeing an extreme number of ECM mechs in random matches. Frequently there are none on either side. Sometimes just one side has one, and it's not generally decisive. I really feel like streaks need a decisive nerf. Right now I feel like if you have missile hardpoints on a light mech you want to put streaks there, it is such an obviously superior weapon. If the want to model tabletop better they should model interlock failure and basically make it jam frequently. Or slash the damage it is doing; right now it's basically a medium lasers that always hits the torsos. An ECM commando is delivering a 15 point alpha that hits automatically and is practically guaranteed to hit the torsos. It's just too awesome. Maybe say the missiles need to have a smaller warhead due to guidance package, and slash the damage per missile from 2.5 to 1.8. Don't know if that's even enough tbh.
Sure, streaks are good on lights vs. speedy mechs. Vs. other mechs you're better off with more lasers since you can aim them at specific points. I suspect lasers will be better vs. lights too once the MWO netcode is fixed, since you generally want to aim at their legs. In many cases "practically guaranteed to hit the torsos" (or arms if your target so chooses, or legs if they're even slightly above you, e.g. jump jets) is not that great, since you could instead take a Medium Laser and have "practically garanteed to hit a component of your choice" for less weight and better range. I suspect the primary reason you're not seeing so much ECM right now is that most players are busy leveling up their 2 non-ECM variants so they can unlock the higher XP tiers for their ECM mech. And sure it doesn't garantee a win, but the side with ECM has a huge advantage. When I've played with ECM my side has lost maybe once when the other side didn't have as many or more ECM mechs. The advantage is mitigated somewhat against disciplined teams, but even then it remains potent.
If there is only one ECM mech in play and the player knows how to use it, it makes a huge difference. When there is multiple, generally the team with the most ECMs wins. Against an organized team though, ECM mechs become primary targets.
Not just good, they are the ultimate weapon. A streak is a medium laser that automatically hits. Better since you are unlikely to get the neccessary pinpoint accuracy on a medium laser to consistently deal it's full damage to a single location. Just played a match just now where I destroyed 5 mechs, a commando, a raven, a hunchback, and two cataphracts with 2 tons of ammo and a touch of single medium laser. I did over 900 points of damage, the rest of my team was annihilated and did maybe 300 points of damage combined. One cataphract had no center torso left so was a very easy kill. The second cataphract I ran out of streak ammo and finsihed it off with the medium laser which took about 12 orbits to hit the back armour, while I was under fire from a centurion and at the end 2 other cataphracts. 1400 xp for a loss! Hopefully the answer to me living so long is "netcode" but the streak is still tremendously overpowered, in that it is far too effective for it's weight and ease of use. Honestly I think I will strip off the medium laser from my commando to add another ton of ammo.
A combination of being ignored and bad netcode made it very difficult to engage you, so you were able to wreak havoc using a light. Therefore, streaks are overpowered.
I have been playing a lot of non-ECM, non-streak equipped light mechs lately, and in doing so I get to engage in a lot of 1 on 1 engagements with enemy light mechs. The pattern against ECM commandos is as follows: if they have streaks I lose. If they do not have streaks I win. Raven 3L is more less the same story. The ECM Commando with streaks is very powerful and can reliably destroy light and medium mechs. The ECM Commando with ANY other loadout is mediocre to weak as a combat unit. Ergo, streaks are an obvious choice and overpowered. I don't think improved netcode will change this calculus. In a light mech duel, a weapon that does 5 damage that requires no aiming skill and always hits will always be a much better than a weapon that does 10 damage but needs to be precisely aimed and timed.
Streaks are about as overpowered as ECM or LRMs or Gauss or an A1 with 6 SRM6 at point blank. Basically, under certain circumstances, most weapons are overpowered. The game is about measure and counter measure. It is about using the right tactic for a given situation. If I was in your situation with no ECM and AMS, I'd try to avoid the lights with Streaks or try to disengage and lead them to the rest of my teammates.
Conversely, 8 person matches are mostly all atlases with ECM. Streaks would be quite useless there, but I suspect the atlas with the ECM will have it removed soon.
None of the other things you mentioned are overpowered. It is not the plainly obvious choice to equip Gauss or LRMs or SRMs. All those weapons require some talent to use effectively and can be countered by battlefield maneuver. You are unlikely to make it. Of course if I meet an ECM commando I can attempt to disengage, but when your opponent is as fast or faster than you that's a bit of a problem. If you flee in a straight line you are dead in 3 salvos due to taking 45 damage to your rear torsos. If they are not equipped with streaks why then you just kill them... Or at least it's down to piloting skill and gunnery. A weapon that is always superior is overpowered. The streak is the 800 pound gorilla of short range weapons. Suggesting that a possible counter is that everyone drives atlases or that everyone equips ECM is the equivalent of burying your head in the sand. They will be nerfed without question. 1 nerf that is certainly coming is that the missiles will target arms and legs as well as the 3 torsos. That may even be sufficient though I suspect they should also have a mild nerf to cool down as well to reduce their dps below that of standard SRMs.
I think it's been said before, but one of the big problems with SSRMs is that they all lock on simultaneously, while in TT they all have to be rolled for individually, if I remember correctly. And in fact if you don't get a lock on you don't fire, which from the targeted mech's viewpoint is as good as a miss. Not sure how this can be replicated in MWO. Maybe decrease the lock on area that must be hovered over, and/or increase the lock on wait time? Also possibly require the SSRMs to chain fire, one batch after another instead of all at once.
Interlock failure could be simulated with a weapon jam functionality, but that just tends to be frustrating. I'd go for longer cooldown, or reduced damage per missile, or reduced missile maneuverability, or some combination of all of those. I can only imagine how terrifying Clan SSRM6 will be at this point.
I can get more concentrated fire out of a Hunchback sporting 5 Medium Lasers and a Guass, with which I frequently go toe to toe with Streakapults yet consistently win. - You don't need to stick all of your damage in one spot to be more concentrated than Streaks. - the DPS on Streaks is low enough that if opponents are simply hitting they're coming out ahead -- even smaller mechs have more raw firepower. - AMS lowers even that DPS. - Streak are short range -- half that of Medium Lasers. - You have to get closer and expose yourself more to use them, and once you're wounded there's blood in the water with no option of cautiously sniping from mid range. - Foes can work terrain to make the lock on time a weakness. - Needing to lock on makes it difficult for a Streak mech to use cover itself. - If Streaks run into ECM they're hosed. Sure, there's a lower bound on how badly you can do with Streaks. There is also an upper bound on how good you can do. So yeah, it's great against weak players, and only sort of decent against good players. That's not my definition of broken. ... I snipped your amusing "look how elite I am" spiel about killing 5 mechs and doing ~900 damage with Streaks -- Frankly if you want to go there I've killed 6 and even 7 mechs in a match with over 1000 for pinpoint weapons (over 1300 for spread weapons) using a variety of weapons from Lasers to PPCs to Ballistics to vanilla SRMs. So by your logic those weapons are all more powerful than Streaks... No, ultimately such spare anecdotes prove nothing.
This is inaccurate. When fleeing a competent opponent will make you hit their arms, or their legs if they're going uphill. They'll also be close enough to friends to not have far to go. Only the nakedest of rookies will actually run straight away from you with their back showing -- and even in that case lasers all on their center torso would kill them quicker. Oh? And what will you do when you find yourself at close range with a 4xSRM6 Awesome who's a good enough shot to stick them? For a weapon so "obviously superior" Streaks have a bunch of weaknesses.
All the weapons opperate much differently than they do in tabletop, even if they try to keep some of the flavor. Lasers don't have different accuracy at different size, AC2s don't suck, firing rates are different, some weapons can fire past their max range, etc. It's difficult to get much out of comparing things to tabletop, especially as overall MWO is much better balanced than Battletech has ever been, where the only way to get any semblance of balance was to only use stock mech variants -- something which as I recall was straight up stated by one of the designers.
Yeah, the Streak 4 and 6 are where the problem lays, some undetermined time in the future. Streak 2s I think are fine, but a Streakapult can fairly easily find the 9 tons needed to upgrade to Streak 4s, and even 3 or 4 missile hardpoint mechs will be brutal with Streak 4s let alone 6s. I've no idea how they plan on dealing with that. Ultimately I imagine they'll have to make counter measures more effective, or nerf them to the point where Streak 2s are useless (rather like SRM 2s) so that the larger launchers are reasonable. Or maybe just don't ever add Streak 4s and 6s?
I think all they need to do is have the streaks fan out a great deal from the firing point and track loose early and zero in toward the last ~60m of flight, so they would hit all over the mech like they should.
Streakapults are not that much of a problem. They are not that hard to kill unless they are piloted by a real expert. A 130km/h commando on the other hand.... but the loadout of your hunchback is not relevant. We are not talking about what is best for a medium mech, or a heavy mech, or an assault mech. There are lots of interesting choices to make for those mechs that actually work. That's really not where the problem is. The point is not that "I am awesome" it is that "I am average" and "streaks are so easy to use a simpleton can employ them to great effect". I've also had matches where I scored 1000+ damage, and killed 6 or 7 mechs. Just not with a commando. This is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. The Awesome is not a light mech. That said an SRM6 awesome would have to get quite lucky to destroy a streak commando. As much as you think a SSRM4 or 6 Catapult would be terrifying in the future, the SSRM2 Commando is terrifying right now. You admit a problem would exist if you scale up to heavies with larger launchers, why are are you so determined to deny there is a problem with lights and smaller launchers? They will be nerfed. The only question is how.
Honestly, you're quivering over the ECM Commando? You're comparing it as somehow equal in threat to a (theoretical!) Catapult with 6xStreak4?! I'm just not seeing it. ECM Commandos are always the first things I hunt, because they're easy targets and getting rid of ECM makes a huge strategic difference. With the edition of ECM now they're decent, and good against light mechs without ECM... but that's it. Why am I "determined" to say Streak 2s aren't a problem? Because I typically don't have trouble killing such mechs, and find other mechs more dangerous. And no, I don't have trouble hitting Commandos with a SRM Awesome -- it only takes one volley, and when you miss the lasers still work albeit more slowly.
I'm quivering over obvious, uninteresting and overpowered choices. A streak armed ECM commando can, piloting skill being equal, easily beat any other light mech in the game 1v1 with the possible exception of.... a streak armed ECM Raven. I'm pretty confident actually that it can reliably 1v1 any medium or heavy too, though thats not that surprising. Most lights can solo larger mechs if there are no streaks involved. Can't say it plainer than that. If it were possible to setup custom matches I would offer to duel you as many times as you like. I'm pretty confident the streak commando will win always
Disagree there too! Mediums are great against lights. Not sure what you're going to do against a 90 kph Hunchback with 9 lasers for example. Pray they miss all the time? You seem strangely confident in your prowess for someone who can't lag shoot a Commando, but whatever. We're beating a dead horse at this point, so let's just agree to disagree.
Indeed. It's too bad there is not yet a reasonable way to test these things. I'm always up to have my theories put to the test of fire, which is why I have been piloting a commando in the first place. But despite our opinions, PGI intends to nerf the SSRM2, the 100% going to happen soft-nerf of allowing the missile to lock on leg and arm joints, and some additonal nerf as yet undisclosed.
Why this emphasis on 1 vs 1? Last time I checked, this was a team game, well unless you are Kurita or a Clanner.
So I got an e-mail saying I should have an extra 8 mil in my bank account now? And that there's a new game mode. That's probably enough to get me to check the game out again.
Yeah, the money is there if you've played at least 25 matches beforehand. And if not you'll get the same money over your first 25 matches -- a vast improvment for new players. Some nice changes this patch, including: - ECM toned down somewhat. - Complete revamp of income to dampen incentives to AFK/suicide farm. - Feels like less lag. Woo hoo! - PPC and ballistic velocity increased. PPCs are /much/ more accurate now, between this and the decreased lag. - 85 ton Stalker added. Beware it's crappy turn speed, twist speed, and twist range! Lots of hardpoints though... - Camo for all mechs now. - Jump Jets apparently now scale with how many you added -- no more free ride! - New game mode. I haven't tried it yet but on paper it looks like effectively just a variation on the original mode.
Conquest mode is fairly fun. There is no possibility of fast base capping so in my opinion its a better excuse to pound the crap out of each other, with more potential to fight over a wider area of the map. I might move to playing it exclusively. PPC and AC changes are great. I agree hit detection felt better too. VERY few lights running around in pugs, the randoms I was in tonight were all skewed very heavy which I guess is to be expected with a lot of stalkers running about. Jump Jet fix has HEAVILY nerfed Jenner jumping. Number of jumpjets mounted is limited by chassis (which IMHO is a good thing as it will help differentiate the upcoming spider). Jenner can mount only 5 which means that on average Jenners have half the jump power they had before, and now they need to spend 2.5 tons to get that instead of just .5. VERY nice to see that fixed finally. This is a nerf to Catapults and Cataphract 3Ds also. Stalker is very nice, though two of the variants are inexplicably pointless (3H and 5N, same hardpoint layout as a 3F except 1 or 2 less hardpoints overall, and no other redeeming qualities). It can take an absolute beating; the center torso is actually quite hard to hit reliably making it very resilient, and the symmetrical hardpoints means losing a torso leaves you with a still considerable array of weaponry. I have finished many matches tonight with one torso gone and CT in crits, but still delivering 50 point alphas. The 5M can even zombie effectively with a large laser in the CT. Some people have commented that the Stalker looks to small compared to the much lighter Catapult. It does kind of feel that way but the Stalker is also substantially longer, hiding a lot more of it's weight in the torpedo-like torso. This patch is a good one, I think. Even the two hero Dragons were a nice surprise addition... and I don't care for hero mechs!
I sort of like Conquest mode as there are no cheezy quick cap wins, but it has a tendency to drag once a game is already effectively won as it takes a while to get to 750. And yeah, the scaling between mechs is all over the place. It's most noticable on light mechs which are much smaller than they should be if you assume mass is roughly proportional to volume. I'm not liking the Stalker at all: - Arms don't move laterally - torso only twists ~60 degrees - lots of hardpoints but can't mount any more double sinks than an Awesome - much slower turning and twisting than an Awesome - can't twist enough to use arms for cover - can't twist enough to shoot while circling - only 1 module - double AMS would be nice except it's laid out such that they'd cost you sinks or missiles. It does have good firepower and an easy time shifting damage aimed at its CT to the side. It gets absolutely destroyed in a brawl though due to turning slow and only being able to shoot forward. Decent in battleline shootouts, but less agile one on one than even an Atlas.
Conquest isn't great but it's a million times better than the other mode, so there's that. Stalker is kinda fun. It needs to have a slightly bigger model though. Of all mechs it's probably the one that is the most team reliant to play though. I caved and bought a flame and put a 360xl and 4 med pulse+srm6 on it for light hunting, which it does pretty decent at while maintaining the ability to do quick punches on bigger stuff before darting away.
After a month off, I installed the latest patch from today and I have to say that the game is markedly improved. Full stats on the mechlab page - and the upgrades are in the main loadout tab so builds can be played with easier. Full voice/audibles is nice, especially the new warning that someone has locked onto you New icons in the huds to show missiles locked onto mechs Great new end of game screen Like the new minor variances they're putting on mechs Just need a way to select a mech on map startup, and all my major gameplay complaints are taken care of!
I've been playing pretty regularly throughout, and they've been doing a decent job improving it: - New mechs - New maps - Improved weapon balance (though I think they made PPCs too good) - Much better netcode - Far few disconnects due to code improvements - Far fewer AFK farmers due to removing the incentive - They just added ELO matchmaking, which will hopefully mean fewer one sided stomps Still plenty I think needs work, but I definitely still enjoy it.
So, I think I may have found a mech configuration last night I like as much as SuperJenner (SuperJenner is a Jenner with one ERPPC and two medium lasers): quad AC/2 Cataphract. I can shoot at long-range things so I don't feel helpless, and it does very good damage in close, too, and who cares if it goes about as fast as molasses?
Fishbreath if you like that, try this: Cataphract 4X w/ 2xUAC5, 2xAC2 More firepower for less heat, though tricky as you have to adjust to the jamming.
Nifty (and I can't quite work out where the extra tonnage comes from vs. my build). Maybe I'll give it a whirl, although I'd definitely miss AMS and CASE.
- 4xAC2 wants more double heat sinks, which might have left you without room for the 3.5 tons from Endosteel? Or maybe you didn't have an XL engine? - CASE you'll be fine without due to the order in which ammo is used, as you'll generally blow through the UAC-5 ammo up top before it's a problem. And since it has an XL engine you don't want the side torso shot up anyway. - Yeah, you'll miss AMS at times, especially on Alpine. Keep some cover handy, and suppress the LRM mechs! - The mixed gun velocity (1300 vs 2000) also takes some getting used to.
Aha, I totally missed the XL engine. I don't think I want to go that way, although I admit the standard 235 I have in the 4xAC2 Cataphract is surpassingly slow when I compare it to my 115kph Jenners. Anyway, that and a few more tons of double heat sinks accounts for it. Ballistics boating is fun! I saw somebody on Youtube with a 3xUAC/5 Cicada, which fits my taste for big firepower on small mechs (I ran a twin PPC Jenner for a while in closed beta).
I'll have to disagree with that, especially now that there's the wide open Alpine map. They're not my favorite weapon nor one I use often, but they have their uses. + Good DPS + Long range and high velocity + Relatively light - Hot - Can't block with arms between shots The trick to make them useful is to either use range/flanking to shoot without being shot, or to stack enough DPS (e.g. the above Cataphract) that opponents can't face you head on.
You missed the other reason they're terrible: they don't lend themselves to concentrating damage, especially at long range. They're the worst of both worlds. At long range, they can't concentrate damage usefully and have the slowest travel speed of the direct-fire long-range weapons. At short range, they make it impossible to brawl defensively, because you have to constantly face your target. You also forgot that they require ammo, so they can run out (and have a minor risk of ammo explosion). They're almost as hot as an ER LL and hotter than an LL, and less useful than either in any situation. The only mech where you'd even consider them is a Phract 4X, and that can run 2 UAC5/2LL just as well. Or you can ditch the dakkadakka and just get Gauss Rifles.
If by 'the slowest travel speed' you mean 'tied for the fastest travel speed', then yes. I've found that brawling defensively is of limited utility when facing AC/2 stackers on the receiving end, because the sustained DPS is very high. UAC/5s are nice, but I could never fit four of them, and adding large lasers adds more heat for less DPS, and UAC/5s jam, and UAC/5s run out of ammunition. AC/2 ammo is plentiful; I have six tons and probably only need four, but keep it so I can take less sure shots. It's also a lighter setup than UAC/5s and LLs if you bring more than 2t of ammunition for the UAC/5s, so I can dispense with the XL engine and stay in the fight even if I lose a side torso. Edit: I also feel qualitatively more effective in a quad AC/2 boat than I do in UAC/5 boats, which is what's important. >.>
