My Sexy Skill Has Increased! Let's Play A Dance with Rogues

I just stumbled upon your LP which I find kind of interesting. I always find it fascinating how different people respond to the module. I have played every version of the module since its initial release and I still find new things in the toolset -- even in your LP I found something new.

What I found especially interesting in this thread were the number of people that were dismissive of the adult content and then a few pages later proceeded to post about games that are way more risque than AWDR. My personal observation has been that once people finally accept that there is adult content in the module they generally dislike the feeling of powerlessness in the PC. Especially in Part One, the character has very little combat power. Her enemies are almost always more powerful than her and combats can take quite a bit of resources to power past.

However, if you don't try to play the game from a male perspective none of the combats are difficult in this game. I wrote a detailed walkthrough to demonstrate this point. In my walkthrough I use no cheats and play primarily as a Rogue with a splash of Ranger and Shadowdancer. I actually prefer to play the game as a Rogue with a splash of Monk, but that does require a minor cheat in raising the character's initial stats a bit because of the multi-ability dependency of the Monk class. However, my point still remains that the game is much easier if played from a more indirect view. For example, in Part One I have killed every enemy possible (aside from those that are immortal or constantly respawn, i.e., Dhorn Patrol) without even using a weapon in most instances.

One of the items you missed early on was the ability to kill the Dhorn General on Princess street by poisoning his beer. It make for a much easier time. However, traps are ultimately the way to go in this game. With traps alone I have been able to essentially solo every combat in the game (ordering henchmen to stay behind when necessary since they don't really work with a trap/stealth build). The dragon in Part Two is especially easy to deal with solo using traps.

About the Anden romance: You missed the best part. The Princess is essentially able to force Anden into sex right after the waterfall. It is very amusing and brings up some interesting questions about the Princess. You should at least look at it. Otherwise, basically the Anden romance works something like this: don't romance anyone else and don't annoy him. If that happens, at the very end of the game if you choose the cabin ending you end up with him. This scene at the waterfall is essentially the meat of the romance.

I'm screaming and crying because I can't seem to find forced sex amusing. Even in the context of the game.
Especially in the context of the game.

Awesome. I only found ADWR last year so I haven't seen any earlier versions, but they would be really interesting to look through (particularly if I could get over my problems with reading things in the toolset).

What was it? I'm really curious now.

I can't speak for anyone else in the thread, but personally, my #1 issue with the porn in ADWR is that most of it is embarrassingly bad. I feel like if a game is going to make me play through a sex scene, it should tell me something interesting about the characters or at least be erotic. (Preferably both.) But the general flaws in the writing of ADWR (awkward phrasing, useless choices, constant typos, etc.) are highlighted in the sex scenes in really awkward ways. There are a few scenes that work; I mentioned the scene with Vico and the knife as one that shows you something interesting about the characters, and I don't know if I said it before, but I liked the overall tone of Tony's scenes because of the contrast between them and all the sex you might have had before that you weren't enjoying.

The feeling of powerlessness in the PC... I think I've talked this point to death already. But it's a different issue than the porn.

First of all, kudos for successfully playing a Monk. I'd be afraid to play any character with an alignment restriction because of all the alignment shifts, but I particularly would suck at playing a Lawful character in ADWR.

But also I think you missed the part where I'm kind of balls at video game combat in general, lol. My main problem is the lack of control over henchmen, which isn't specific to ADWR.

(Your later tips about traps are well-taken. I have a bunch of points in Set Traps, I just always forget about it.)

I actually did that, but then I accidentally broke into his bedroom before the poison took effect and ended up killing him anyway, so then I just left the part about the poison out of the walkthrough so I didn't have to explain the Evil alignment shift. (The behind-the-scenes secrets of an LP!)

Really??? I read a line on ADWR wiki about that, but I couldn't trigger that dialogue, so I figured it was referring to an earlier version. It could just be an issue with my working from a save file where I was romancing Vico and had to cheat in Anden's romance, but I don't know. If you tell me what conditions/dialogue choices I need I can try to trigger that scene again and get some screenshots. Like MulMizu I don't know that I'd find it amusing, but I at least want to see what's up with it.

"You died. I saved your life, Anden. Do you know what that means? You're my bitch. Deal with it."

That's the only way I can picture it.

So basically this?

Seems to be the running theme in ADwR, wouldn't you say?

I never noticed the note in the Ice Princess before about the illicit romance.

I have always figured most of the problems with dialogue were because Valine is not a native English speaker, so there are some awkward phrases and such.

I think the point about "usesless" choices we might have to differ on (unless you are referring to the repetitive non-vocal expressions). I think someone else mentioned this as well. Most of the choices in the dialogues lead to the same outcome. However, they are there mostly for the player to "role play" their character. This allows the player the illusion of creating different attitudes for the character (sarcastic, naive, etc.) even though they don't change the NPC dialogue much -- the initial conversation with Nathan is a bit of an exception. It is much better than just giving the character 1 choice as it gives the illusion of not being railroaded as much. Try playing Gladiatrix and you will see what I mean. Almost every dialogue the player has only 1 choice.

Agreed, but in many other threads on the subject I have seen "porn" used as a cover for this subject which is why I mentioned in the first place. Again I find it fascinating wide ranging reactions to this game.

I can generally only get a few levels with Monk and only by really gaming the system. For example, I destroy containers after removing traps and unlocking them rather then looting them directly as one does not take the alignment hit that way. But the game drives the character toward Chaotic and Evil in a big way. I do think that multiclassing with Fighter is weaker than multiclassing with Ranger, Paladin, or Monk. The only real benefit to the Fighter class is that is allows the character to wear a bunch of armor that is useless for stealth. Unless you really like the look of poor resolution chainmail bikini clad characters. :)

I haven't dissected part II as much as part I and it turns out I was mistaken. What you posted is the forced sex scene with Anden. For some reason I remembered it as being part of his resurrection. It could be a remembrance from a previous version however.

BTW, I have always disliked the jump blindly down the waterfall. Note only does it seem stupidly out of character, but there are more elegant ways to railroad the player than this. I have always wanted to rewrite this scene. Maybe have the party crossing a wooden bridge and having the kobolds appear and cut the ropes dropping the party in the chasm. Something besides this.

For me, NPCs not responding to your dialogue choices breaks the illusion that you're roleplaying and/or not being railroaded. It makes me feel like I'm shouting things at a wall and not actually participating in the story. Even though I've joked about the spots where you only get one dialogue option and have to agree with the railroading, I prefer that honesty to a poor illusion.

Using a looping branch technique to add just a few more unique NPC responses to each conversation, and/or cutting down the number of redundant response choices (what's the difference between "ooohhhh" and "oooooohh my!!", honestly?) would have gone a long way to improving the dialogue and the immersiveness of the roleplaying.

Ah, OK. I was thrown because I didn't read this sex scene as "forced"... Maybe what the fanfic community would call "dubcon," I don't know.

Yeah, something like that could have been cool. A tense, dramatic moment. With this, it's hard to roleplay ending up on the other side of the waterfall with half your company dead or missing as anything other than "welp, I'm an idiot, then."

Yeah it's part of the reason I can't play my princess as an overly intelligent tactician (no matter how much I want to) she carries the idiot ball too often.

While I agree with you in general here I think either of us would be hard pressed to find many games that even go as far as AWDR in this regard -- especially given only one person is involved in the creation of it (her technique has definitely evolved over the many versions of this module). One of the draws about ADWR in general is that in comparison to most everything out there, ADWR is extremely chatty and the NPCs are extremely responsive to most of the PCs dialogue. Valine has also done some things that professional game designers should take note of such as character "mooding".

If you know of any games in which NPC actually are more responsive to the PC please let me know. I have been PC gaming since 1978 and have yet to find something with the sheer amount of dialogue and character choices. Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, Torment, and KOTR 1/2 might come close and are the games I have played multiple times for these reasons.

One of my favorite authors is Stephen R. Donaldson. I read his first Thomas Covenant series as a freshman in high school and really like his Gap series. Donaldson is definitely a better word smith than Valine, but this module like Donaldson's novels approaches fantasy from a perspective (villain, victim, and hero changing roles) that very few others do. In fact the relationship between the Princess and Vico is very reminiscent of the relationship between Morn and Angus in the Gap series (though Morn is way more abused in that series than the Princess is in ADWR).

I think someone before mentioned that the module almost forces the character into a romance with Vico. I would instead say that the Vico/Princess romance is just more developed than the others. The module gives plenty of ways to stop the relationship in its tracks. I think I have played the Vico romance about twice -- mostly I tolerate him just barely until I can jam my sword into his tiny little brain. There is an ADWR fanfiction called Debts (probably the only one worth reading IMHO) that's good in regards to why the Princess would even tolerate Vico. I think if Vico wasn't just so damn crude a possible relationship might make sense. Vico's character talks too much in my mind.

ADWR to quote from TV Tropes is a Crap Bag world. Since the story is told from the perspective of the PC we don't really see that other female characters in the world are treated to the same level of objectification as she has been. However, the conversations with minor NPCs in Westwood in particular illustrate that this is indeed true. It is precisely because it is a crap bag world which creates the tension that drives the story forward. For example, we as the player know anytime the Princess meets a decent guy, he is going to get killed. The only decent guy that remains at the end is Bran (Anden has too many psychological hang ups to be considered a decent guy -- there is a reason that he is the last possible person that the Princess can actually romance) -- and even Bran can be "killed" as part of their romance.

It is my hope (though I am sure that it will be unrealized) for Valine to put out a third part in the series that illustrates how Dhorn society operates. I have always thought that the last part in the trilogy should have the PC traveling to the Dhorn capital and infiltrating it before finally confronting the Dhorn Emperor (who might actually be an Emperoress). It would be through this vehicle that she could explain how the society evolved to its current structure and how it actually operates. It could be especially interesting if it came full circle upon the PC in the process.

One of the things you have missed by not playing some of the previous versions was in the Tony the Tiger quest. When Tony and the Sargosians are discussing business, one of them comes over and talks to the Princess at the Bar. (Your Post #354). In a previous version, a bomb is set off at this point of the interaction. In this version Valine alludes to that event and essentially breaks the 4th wall.

Smuggler: You look a little worried, sweet lady. Is everything okay?
Princess: Yes, why do you ask?
Smuggler: Hehehe, you looked like there was a bomb about to explode under the table.
Princess: Huh? A bomb? <StartAction>[Blink]</Start>

I definitely think ADWR is impressive in scope and content considering that it's the work of only one person. However, I would strongly disagree that NPCs are "extremely responsive." I'm going to use Baldur's Gate II mods as a point of comparison, because a) I play a crapton of BG2, and b) with the help of Infinity Explorer and a basic understanding of WeiDU code, I have a very good idea of how dialogues are structured.

Uh, this got a lot longer than I had originally intended when I started typing it up after dinner. I hope someone else finds it interesting.

In Which Nerys TL;DRs About RPG Romance Dialogue (and Fangirls Haer'Dalis)

I'm using an example of dialogue from the Haer'Dalis Romance Mod, since I've played it and read through the dialogue files multiple times, and it's my favorite romance from any RPG in terms of both character and structure. This is one of the possible first sex scenes (there is nothing explicit here, don't worry), which triggers if you rest outside. (The ones in an inn are actually quite different.)

A. A lovely night it is, my raven. The chaos of our battle-filled days pleases this sparrow, 'tis true, but I can find no fault in occasional moments of quiet peace such as this. Will you favor me with a walk beneath the stars?

1. A romantic moonlit stroll? It would be my pleasure.
2. Okay, but not too far. We're not exactly safe here.
3. To what end?
4. I don't think that's a good idea.
5. Ask me again some other night.
6. I'm exhausted. I must decline.

(A5) and (A6) lead to "As you would. Rest well, <CHARNAME>."and end the dialogue. (A3) and (A4) (the reluctant responses) lead to another line:

B. 'Tis likely as not that this is our last night alive. Why would we not make the most of it?

1. Isn't that a cheerful thought... but, it's true enough. Fine, let's walk.
2. I suppose that's true. Let's walk, then.
3. Oh, very well. But behave yourself!
4. Maybe some other time.
5. I'm exhausted. I must decline.

(B4) and (B5) lead to the exit dialogue. (B1) and (B2) lead to:

C. Wonderful. Take my arm, my dear friend, and let us wander where our feet take us.

(A1) and (A2) also lead here, without the middle step. (B3) has a different response, acknowledging the PC's suspicion: "Whatever do you imply, my suspicious friend? I am the picture of innocence! Now, take my arm and let us wander where our feet take us." But then all these lead to:

D. Ah, what a pleasant breeze blows. And a shooting star! Hah! This sparrow was quite fond of the Prime from the start, but the longer I tarry here, the more delightful things I discover.

1. It must have been a big shift, leaving the planes to come here.
2. Do you miss Sigil?
3. I love the night. It's so peaceful, calm, beautiful.
4. Eh, it seems pretty dull to me.
5. Delightful things, hmm? Such as benevolent Bhaalspawn saviors?
6. Uh, sure. Whatever you say.
7. I'm too tired for this, Haer'Dalis. I'm off to sleep.

A nice choice of responses for roleplaying -- but they also actually lead to different reactions from Haer'Dalis. (D7) just leads to the exit dialogue. (D6) just leads to the next bit of dialogue to move the conversation along:

E. Stop a moment, my raven. Look at this ocean of stars! Breathtaking. They form pictures in the sky, do they not? I admit, I have learned only but a little of such things.

But the other five responses lead to short conversations (which I shan't transcribe for the sake of space), each one different. The conversation is still moving towards its goal, but it will also go off in a different direction if you guide it, and for more than just one line of response.

The responses to E are:

1. Constellations, yes. I was taught to recognize them as a child.
2. I know them well enough. We use them for navigation.
3. I know very little about the stars.
4. I know nothing of the stars.
5. I have no time for gazing at the sky like some starry-eyed fool.
6. (yawn) I'm so tired. Let's go back and get some rest. (--> exit dialogue again)

(E1) and (E2) both lead to the same dialogue ("Would you share some of your knowledge with this sparrow? Perhaps recline here on this grass with me a while?"), but (E2) has another line in between: "Ah, this explains why you've little need for maps and yet remain sure of our heading. Impressive."Again, acknowledging the specifics of what you've actually said.

(E3) and (E4) lead to: "A pity. Perhaps we should make up our own shapes in the sky, aye? Would you care to recline a while with me in the grass and gaze at the stars?" (E5) leads to: "Ah, then I suppose you'd have no care to recline on the grass here with me and admire the beauty overhead." Same end (you lying down with him, or declining and ending the conversation), but different ways to get there.

If you agree, the conversation moves on. If you're ambivalent, you get some more dialgoue that responds to what you said. E.g., if you're afraid of bugs: "Oh, raven of mine, surely we've fought our way through far worse than insects and grime! But, if it makes you more comfortable, allow me to spread my cloak, or you may rest your head upon my chest to keep your fair face safe from wandering pests." (Possible response: "Oh, that was smooth." Haer'Dalis: "I know." Other possible response: "So this is all just a ruse to get me into your arms?" Haer'Dalis: "Is it working?")

Eventually, this leads to:

F. Wonderful. Here, let us rest upon my cloak and stretch our weary bodies 'neath the heavens for a spell.

1. (Settle in comfortably against him, the back of your head cradled in the dip of his shoulder.)
2. (Recline beside him, leaving a small space between your bodies.)
3. (Sit on the edge of the cloak, far from him.)
4. On second thought, I'm very tired. I think I'll head back to camp. (--> exit dialogue)

Haer'Dalis' responses acknowledge your position, so it's not just for roleplaying purposes. (F1) leads to: "(The bard's fingers idly caress your waist, a small sigh escaping his lips, then his attention focuses on the sky above you.)" (F2) leads to: "(The bard reaches out and squeezes your fingers, a smile flitting across his lips before he turns his attention to the sky overhead.)" (F3) leads to: "My dear raven, you look most uncomfortable. Have I done something to offend?"which leads to another short side conversation and/or chance to leave.

As you watch the stars, Haer'Dalis says: "Tell me, are there any hounds painted in the sky with stars, or birds perhaps? Those over there look very much like a certain raven I know." You can either respond with interest ("Oh, really? Well these here look decidedly like a sparrow flirting with that raven of yours.") or neutrally, which lead to slight but meaningful variations in the next dialogues. If you're interested, you get:

G. (The tiefling props himself up on one elbow and leans over you, his face cast in shadow, but his eyes are sparkling. There is a playful smile in his tone when he quietly speaks a moment later.) Does the raven seem interested in the sparrow's advances, I wonder?

1. (Touch his face with your fingertips.) Very much so.
2. (Smile.) I'm not sure. Maybe he's not trying hard enough.
3. Kiss me and find out.
4. I... I'm not sure this was a good idea...
5. I'm not interested in this right now. I'm heading back to camp.

If you don't clearly express interest, you get:

H. (Haer'Dalis listens intently as you point out and explain various forms in the heavens. After a while, you realize his gaze is no longer on the stars, but rather watching your face, a faint smile on his lips. He props himself up on one elbow and leans over you, his face cast in shadow, but his eyes are sparkling.) There are stars in your eyes, my sweet raven.

1. (Touch his face with your fingertips.) And in yours as well.
2. (Smile.) Flatterer.
3. Kiss me.
4. I... I'm not sure this was a good idea...
5. I'm not interested in this right now. I'm heading back to camp.

All of the interested responses to (G) and (H) lead to:

I. (His body flush against your side, Haer'Dalis leans over you, tucking a wayward strand of his hair behind his pointed ear, making his earrings chime together softly. His expression is almost impossible to discern in the shadows that cover his face, but when he strokes your cheek, you can feel the tenderness and barely bridled passion in his touch.) (The first brush of his lips on yours is careful, questioning.)

1. (Deepen the kiss.)
2. (Relax and let him lead things.)
3. (Impatiently roll the both of you over, flipping him onto his back so you can straddle his waist.)
4. (Pull away.)

(I1) through (I3) each have a unique response, then after a few more lines eventually lead to the same thing (fade-to-black sex). (I4) leads to a separate conversation line:

J. Do you protest?

1. No. (Kiss him deeply.)
2. I'm not sure. Kiss me until I am.
3. (Impatiently roll the both of you over, flipping him onto his back so you can straddle his waist.)
4. I'm not ready for this. Can we just lay here under the stars a few moments instead?
5. I can't do this. I cannot betray my lover!

(J1) through (J3) lead to the same line as (I1) through (I3), but the slight changes in the dialogue acknowledge the different setup. (J4) and (J5) lead to different bits of exit dialogue than before, though. (J4) leads to:

K. But of course, my sweet raven. 'Tis always my pleasure to spend time with you, whatever the purpose. Still, we should not tarry overlong, lest our presence be missed. Take my hand and let us wander our way back.

And then exits. (J5) has instead:

L. (Haer'Dalis closes his eyes for a moment, drawing in a deep breath for composure. When he looks at you again, he offers a tight but understanding smile.) As you wish, my raven. Let us return to camp.

And then exits, after setting a "cheater" variable that will affect how Haer'Dalis talks to and responds to you in the future.

In contrast, take a look at the dialogue with Vico at the inn if you've been flirty with him. This begins in vico_conv8:

A. <StartAction>[I wake up feeling somebody's fingers touching my shoulder. Somebody has snuck up on me!]</Start> <StartAction>[I draw my knife just in case and turn around! Vico is sitting by my side. Studying me.]</Start>

1. Oh, whew... You scared me for a moment.
2. Oh it's you.
3. I could have hurt you by accident!
4. What do you want?
5. We surely do not have to get up yet...
6. Why are you staring at me?

All but (A3) lead to: "Do you intend to kill me with that little knife of yours? <StartAction>[He smirks and points at my knife.]</Start>" (A3) leads to: "If you ever hurt me with your little knife, it will be by accident indeed."so that bit of variation is nice. But moving on, every single response leads to the same dialogue from Vico:

B. I want to show you something. Come.

His response is a little different whether you agree or disagree, but you're still railroaded into following him upstairs. That is the first thing that made me feel the Vico romance is forced on you, regardless of any dialogue that happens after. You're forced to behave in ways that might be out-of-character in order to accommodate his romance even if you're not interested, because the dialogue offers you no other choice.

The talk continues in vico_conv9:

C. <StartAction>[We walk up the dimly lit stairs. The building is completely silent. We must be the only ones who are not asleep at the moment.]</Start> <StartAction>[Vico leads me into a room which is dominated by a large bed. Red velvet cushions and covers, a huge mirror right next to the bed as well as a couple of bawdy paintings on the walls make the room's general purpose more than obvious.]</Start>

1. <StartAction>[Look around]</Start>
2. This looks like a brothel room!
3. Uhm...
4. I don't think it was a good idea to come up here. Let me go down again please.
5. <StartAction>[Eye Vico warily]</Start>
6. I like the decoration! <StartAction>[Grin]</Start>

All the responses lead to:

C. [Yeah.] Interesting to find such a room in a dwarven inn. I wonder how many of those stinky little dwarven bastards have been bred here.

1. <StartAction>[Blush]</Start>
2. Vico!
3. I think this room is for their guests only.
4. Probably half the city.
5. Who cares?
6. I don't think I want to know.

Again, Vico has absolutely no unique response to any of this. Just right on to:

D. <StartAction>[Suddenly Vico grabs me, and I find myself lifted up from the floor! He crosses the distance to the bed with a couple of quick strides and throws me down on the sheets, on my back!]</Start>

1. Eeks!
2. Hey!!
3. Ack!!
4. No!!!
5. Whoops!?

This is the kind of thing I mean by "useless choices." It's not only that they all lead to the same next line (which they do); it's that there's no meaningful difference between them in terms of roleplaying. You don't even get an option to try to fight or pull away, which might change the course of the conversation.

Then on to:

E. <StartAction>[He lies down on top of me, grasping my wrists, pinning down my arms above my head.]</Start>

1. What are you doing?!
2. You're hurting me, Vico.
3. <StartAction>[Look up at him with a frightened expression]</Start>
4. No, leave me be!
5. Somebody really needs to get some, hmm?

At least here you get to choose between various flirty and resistant responses. Vico's next line has some slight variation depending on the choice:

F. Shh, [don't be afraid.../easy...] <StartAction>[He looks down at me, studies me, his gaze never faltering.]</Start>

1. You scare me...
2. <StartAction>[Blush]</Start>
3. <StartAction>[Lie still]</Start>
4. <StartAction>[Look away]</Start>
5. <StartAction>[Glare at him]</Start>
6. Get off of me! <StartAction>[Struggle]</Start>

Again, all lead to the same next line of dialogue. It's powerlessness not just in the game, but on a meta level; I can choose to struggle, but everything around me ignores it.

G. Do you know that you've been on my mind almost every moment during the last couple of weeks? Do you know how badly I want you? <StartAction>[His fingers trace through my hair, brush it back.]</Start>

1. <StartAction>[Try to squirm away from him]</Start>
2. <StartAction>[Blush and look away]</Start>
3. Vico, please, let me go...
4. You intend to bed me, don't you?
5. <StartAction>[Smile at him]</Start>

Aaand nothing unique again. Not even a minor acknowledgment that she's willing or unwilling. Another reason why the Vico romance feels forced. You could be flirting with Vico just for fun/to be a dick, and suddenly you get stuck in this sex scene you can't get out of because the game doesn't respond to you. Compare this to the Haer'Dalis scene, where there's an option to leave in pretty much every single set of dialogue choices.

H. <StartAction>[He wraps his arms around me, presses me tightly against him, kisses my neck and the hollow of my throat with wild passion.]</Start>

1. No...! <StartAction>[Push him away]</Start>
2. <StartAction>[Lie still]</Start>
3. <StartAction>[Embrace him, too]</Start>
4. Oh...

(H1) finally leads to a unique response: "Don't fight this. You know that you want it, too. <StartAction>[His fingers stroke over my hips, then find their way up, cupping my breasts...]</Start>"You get the option to continue on or: "<StartAction>[Bring up my knee and kick him between his legs!]</Start>", leading to:

J. <StartAction>[I hit! He groans with pain and lets me go. I quickly roll off the bed.]</Start> <StartAction>[He gives me a black look.]</Start>

1. Don't touch me again, okay?
2. Asshole.
3. That wasn't nice!
4. Was that all? Can I go back downstairs then?

I'm not positive where (J4) leads due to my trouble searching in the conversation editor. The only thing I can find is a line in a different branch where it leads to them just going downstairs peacefully, which seems off for Vico, so I don't know. (J1) throuh (J3) lead to: "<StartAction>[He shrugs.]</Start> I've told you before, most men won't give a shit about whether you wish to spread your legs for them or not. They'll just have their way with you if they want to.", which seems to eventually lead to going downstairs as well. So at least there is an out somewhere. [EDIT: Or does one of these lead to Bran coming up to rescue you? I couldn't tell in the conversation editor, but I will try to check in-game when I get a chance.]

If you do continue with the sex scene, the dialogue does recognize whether you're already undressed or if Vico needs to undress you. I guess that's what's most important here. There are also a few places where Vico responds to your dialogue. For example, (I'm paraphrasing to avoid being too explicit) when he starts using his mouth, if you ask what he's doing he'll reply: "I wish to taste your sweet skin..." But if you just wait, he'll say: "Your skin tastes so sweet..." It's a little thing, but I appreciate it. It also looks like there's at least one more "out" from the sex scene, so again, good from a roleplaying perspective as well as a metagame perspective. But then there's another point where you get the response choice: "<StartAction>[Try to push him away]</Start>" and it leads to: "<StartAction>[I half-heartedly try to push him away. He grasps my wrists with one hand and easily holds them in place." And a bit later, "No, please..." leads to Vico saying, "Shh, don't speak." So if you get past a certain point, you no longer get the chance to stop, even if you choose to do so -- which is, in my mind, worse than not giving you the choice at all.

Then there's a few places where the unique dialogue following your response choice is just a more in-depth description of your response choice; e.g., "<StartAction>[Arch my back]</Start>" --> "<StartAction>[My thighs start quivering, and I arch my back.]</Start>"

From here it seems that the rest of the scene is basically linear; you get a choice of interjections, but it doesn't affect anything, and you don't even get the choice to resist anymore. As roleplaying it's kind of pointless (again, what's the difference between "Oh..." and "Oh yes!!!"?)

After the sex:

K. Holy shit. I think one more round and I'd surely die.

1. <StartAction>[Blush]</Start> <StartHighlight>[Oh dear Gods, did I really do this?]</Start>
2. <StartAction>[Cuddle myself up to him]</Start>
3. I guess we should not tell the others about this...
4. That was not bad for a start, yes. <StartAction>[Grin]</Start>
5. And now? <StartAction>[Look at him earnestly]</Start>

These actually have unique responses. Cool. For example, (K1) and (K4) lead to: "What's on your mind, hm? <StartAction>[He gently brushes back my hair and looks at me.]</Start>"I'm not sure why (K4) leads there as well. There's a bit of short banter after before the conversation ends (I think; I can't quite follow it). (K5) leads to:

L. What do you mean? <StartAction>[He gently brushes back my hair and looks at me.]</Start>

1. Are you sorry for what you did to me that night?
2. Does this have a deeper meaning? I mean, does it mean more than that we've spent a couple of hours together?
3. I feel so... confused...
4. Actually, nevermind...

(L4) leads to a kiss and ends the convo. (L2) and (L3) lead to: "<StartAction>[He studies me for a couple of moments[, then nods slowly].]</Start> I want you to be always like that, <FirstName>. Content, happy, naughty... I won't give you up. <StartAction>[He embraces me tightly.]</Start>" Which seems like a non-sequitur in both cases.

(L1) leads to: "<StartAction>[He looks away for a moment.]</Start> <StartAction>[He clears his throat, then looks at me again.]</Start> If somebody did this to you again, I'd make sure he'd die a long, slow, and really painful death. I won't let anybody do that to you again." There's only one response: "You haven't answered my question though." (Why only one response here, and not even a "nevermind"?) He replies:

M. Yes. I am sorry for what I did to you.

1. <StartAction>[Nod]</Start>
2. <StartAction>[Smile]</Start> Then I'll forgive you...
3. But why did you do it?

(M1) and (M2) lead to the same dialogue, and the conversation track seems to eventually loop around to (L2) and its responses. The track that starts with (M3) I already went over in the Vico romance update. Your responses don't affect his dialogue until the very end, when you choose to forgive or not to forgive him.

I could say that the dialogue shows you a little bit about the character -- that Vico ignores the Princess' wishes and does his own thing -- but a) I don't think that was the intention, and b) it's not unique to Vico. The point is, this scene has a lot of dialogue, sure, but it's a lot of fluff and padding.

I think the examples I chose are fair representatives of each mod as a whole. The dialogue in the Haer'Dalis Romance feels responsive, even when the conversation is moving towards a particular goal. It's not just written well, in terms of its use of the English language; it's structured in a way that feels immersive, but still gives you an out if you (as a player, or in-character) get uncomfortable with where the scene is going. The dialogue in A Dance with Rogues feels like it's dragging you along for the ride, kicking and screaming if it comes to that. There are a few bright spots, yes. But overall, the dialogue is no more responsive than the minimum necessary to have a functional RPG.

next update

While I appreciate your analysis, I think I already mentioned that BG was on the list of better games/modules. And when I refer to PC/NPC interactivity I am not just talking about the structure of conversations.
I think we are in agreement about the silliness of the non-vocals in the dialogues (as I mentioned earlier). However, you could not have picked two less representative dialogues for the two games (in my mind anyways). ;)

I have played BG (by which I mean BG1, BG2, and ToB) extensively with multiple characters and through all romances. Most of the dialogue in BG is the standard fare in almost all RPGs with very little interactivity and generally mostly exposition. The romance dialogues are better crafted as a whole, but the dialogues with Jon Irenicus are mostly just exposition with almost no reaction to any of the player choices (and border on the tedious after awhile). While I love BG as a whole, the conversation you listed above is not at all representative or even that memorable to me given I haven't played the game in about 6 years. The romance with Jaheira was the most memorable to me because of its complexity and the growth shown by the character. However, once any of the romance dialogues were played out, the NPC basically turned inert.

For AWDR the conversation you posted is in fact the pivotal dialogue of the game. However, it is a summation dialogue -- all of the interactive was decided long before the scene in the Inn. You can see that from this table I created a few years back (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffdebraal/NWN/adwr2_122/influence.html). The table lists how to influence all of the beginning NPCs through conversations from the beginning of Part II until the scene in the Inn. [As an aside, if you examine the table you can see why your initial conversation with Vico doomed the romance from the very beginning. BTW, this table still works for v1.23 even though I wrote it for v1.22. I haven't reworked it since I kept hoping that an updated Part II would have been released at this point.]

It is from this point The Princess and Vico change roles in their relationship with her taking power from him. It is at this point where Vico starts the trajectory downward from Villain to Victim (a trajectory that played out better in the the previous version of Part II, I might add). This is also the start of where the Princess starts the Hero's decent into the proverbial underworld. So when you say there is little interactivity in this scene I certainly agree to a point. However, the scene had been set long before through all of the character interactions prior including which romance the she was favoring. The Princess is given one final chance to change the outcome of the scene (a Hail Mary play, if you will). It is also from this scene where the party make up will be determined going forward with the smallest possible party being that of The Princess, Anden, and possibly Pia (if she made it into Part II). So overall this scene would be better compared to say Irenicus in Spellhold or perhaps Suldanessellar.

A more representative dialogue for AWDR is simply the first one with Nathan where he presents the Seven Lessons. It follows a simple 1:3:3:1 model. The NPC says something, the PC has 3 responses, the NPC has something unique to say about 2 or 3 of them, and then the NPC continues on with the task of telling the PC what comes next. Clearly the most complex dialogue format in AWDR does not compare to the most complex dialogue format in BG2 and I have never meant to imply otherwise. However, BG2 would really benefit from the Mooding mechanic that was introduced into AWDR. And it is this mechanic that makes ADWR's NPCs interactive. There are dialogue triggers all over the place in AWDR. The NPCs when they trigger indicate they have something to say, but don't just blurt it out and interrupt the flow of what the player is currently involved in at the moment. And at least one NPC always has something to say about whatever is going on at the moment.

I mentioned earlier the game does not necessarily drive the Princess into a romance with Vico. However, there is no doubt that the relationship between Vico and the Princess is the most important one, regardless of any romance. From a storytelling perspective, there is only one thing that really makes AWDR unique and IMHO worth the effort of analysis. For a western RPG (and cannot comment on JRPGs as I have played so few of them) it plays with the roles of Victim, Villain, and Hero. In BG the PC is the Hero chosen by fate. We know that despite any setbacks the PC might encounter, the PC is never the Victim or the Villain (even if played as Evil) of the story. However, with ADWR there is an attempt to change this model. The PC starts as the Victim and can eventually become either the Hero or the Villain of the story. At any point in the story the PC can be put back into the Victim role as well -- even in the ending where the role is more Martyr. The Villain of the story ultimately becomes the Victim -- primarily due to his own weaknesses.

This is what is unique about AWDR IMHO. Given the scope of the module the NPCs are extremely responsive in comparison to most of the RPGs/Player submitted modules. However, games like the BG series, KOTR 1/2 (unfinished as it is), and Planescape: Torment are clearly exceptional. However in comparison to Icewind Dale? Nope clearly very little NPC interactivity; clearly only enough dialogue to move the RPG along. Temple of Elemental Evil and all of the Gold Box series games are basically the same as far as PC/NPC interactions. I loved Vampire: Bloodlines as a game, but not much for PC/NPC interactions as a whole (though there are a few exceptions).

This is what I mean by NPC interactivity -- the primary NPCs are present and comment on the current situation and their dialogues don't ever completely play out. In the structure of most conversations, there are generally enough options for the PC to convey a mood/viewpoint to hang a role-playing hook on -- and they don't follow the standard pattern of the good choice, the neutral choice, and the evil choice. The are more like the sarcastic choice, the professional choice, the naive/innocent choice, the insane/creepy choice, and perhaps more.

I should also point out the first time I played AWDR I disliked it. But as I played more and more fan made modules for NWN I came to appreciate AWDR precisely because there was a lot of energy devoted to NPC interactivity.

Finally, if you really want to look at a hard hitting conversation open Part I in the toolset and look for warek_xxx_conv1. This was a conversation intended for and updated Part II v.1.24. The emotional impact of it is strong.

I get what you're saying about BG2. However, I was focusing my argument specifically on one mod -- I find a lot of mod writing in general better than the original game in terms of interactivity and immersion -- specifically for the sake of comparing romance dialogue to romance dialogue. Regardless of how you get to the conversation with Vico at the inn, the lack of interactivity and responsiveness in that particular dialogue does a lot of harm to the romance. From my experience playing a few times, I remember more dialogue like that and less like Nathan's. You raise a good point about NPC interjections, however, which I was discounting somewhat.

I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement about the dialogue in general, though, and I'm sure some of it just has to do with our personal tastes. (Spoilers: I fucking love Haer'Dalis.)

This is an excellent summary of stuff I like about ADWR and a big part of why I honestly, unironically enjoy it despite all the bits I complain about.

[EDIT: Although if you could please spoiler tag the last sentence of that paragraph, that would be awesome. The tag is [spoiler ] [/ spoiler] (without the spaces).]

I was hoping to get to that later. No spoilers, please! [EDIT: Actually, that may be different from the secret behind-the-scenes convo I'd read about elsewhere. I'll have to double-check. But I'll address whatever bits of bonus dialogue I can find and make sense of in the toolset, no problem.]

(P.S. I was using your table as a guide when I remembered not to screw things up, so thank you for it, seriously.)

I think we are more in agreement that disagreement. I certainty would prefer to see conversations with more options and responses as you outlined above. (I also got that you like Haer Dalis). ;)

Done.

You have already passed the point where the Warek conversation would be inserted so you should be good.

Sorry, I meant this bit:

since it's ending spoilers.

lots and lots of words there, guys.
lots and lots and lots of words.

My next dialogue analysis will be done entirely in interpretive dance.

(Or probably gifs.)

I vote for dancing.

Also, this is completely random and unrelated to any previous discussion, but I feel like I should point out that "pia" means "sink" in my language.
And now you know this useless piece of knowledge! You're welcome.

"Sink" like "kitchen sink," or like "to sink underwater"?

Kitchen sink.

EDIT: It could also be the third person single present form of the verb "piar" which means "to make bird sounds".

I think MariPanda is voting for the next dialogue analysis to be in bird sounds - squawk!

Hoot! Hooooot hoot!

Whipoorwill! Whipoor-wiiiiiiillll?

"It would be easier to take your clothes off if you put them on first!" I am not sorry.

PC tries to buy from the Jeweler while naked"

"Madame, if you're looking to have your private parts pierced you're in the wrong place. I only sell rings and amulets!"

O hoo hoo hoo~

"I pity Sir Gemli. He did not deserve to die like this."

"I couldn't know the waterfall was that big."

"It might have been prudent to examine the waterfall some more."

"So why didn't you voice your concerns before we dropped down?!"

OK, look. I can accept making us do something stupid to railroad the plot, as long as you don't have other characters point out that it was stupid and make me have to start defending the idea.

"Right. Next time we'll toss YOU down first."

That's not fair, Bran. Anden died. I'm just lucky I could raise him. Bran cuts me off before I can speak.

"Sorry. But pointing fingers now absolutely doesn't make sense. We all knew this would be dangerous, and we all decided to take the risk."

Anden glares at Bran, then nods slowly. "I'm sorry, Lady Riona."

We cover Gemli's skeleton with rocks, and I realize I don't even know what god he served. I would say a prayer if I could, but I don't know if the Dwarven gods would even hear me.

Both of those last two fights are absolutely ridiculous, by the way. But they're kind of optional, in that you're likely to lose the first one and the plot accounts for that. If you win the fight against the dark elves, you just get to face another hard fight as punishment for trying to escape the railroading.

Actually, the undead fight is quite fun once you figure out a strategy (I had to replay it three or four times, and eventually used up a ton of scrolls and started setting off explosives everywhere in the middle of skeleton clusters). And I would recommend replaying until you beat both, because you gain a huge amount of loot and experience that will come in handy. But the dark elf battle is the one that got me to declare early on in the thread that the fights in Part 2 are absolute bullshit. If I hadn't bought that extra Rod of Resurrection I'd have been completely screwed.

Alpha Protocol, no question. It does such a good job of it that it's essentially invisible until you're replaying it and choosing some of the options that seemed obviously awful the first time around.

Yes, the dark elf battle is very tough without trapping the bridge and keeping your henchmen back. Trapping the bridge however makes this a cake walk.

Here you have highlighted my biggest complaint -- how infantile the dialogue can be at times.

I finally got around to playing AP after it went dramatically on sale on Steam. I have played it through almost 4 times. If I would have purchased the game for more than $7 bucks I would have been gravely disappointed. As far as just the dialogue (completely forgetting the crappy design in general) it is no better than Mass Effect 1 IMHO and probably closer to Mass Effect 2. The most frustrating parts about the dialogue is how much metagamming it takes to set up certain dialogue options. The conversations with SIE were especially bad -- on par with the infantile dialogues in ADWR.

I played through all of the dialogue trees to the extent allowed by the crappy save system and I really found little variability. Of course all of this is IMHO. YMMV.

This is basically the problem with Part 2: it requires you to use fighting strategies that would work great if you were still soloing, but drag a party around. Even if I remembered to set traps ever, I would get annoyed with having to drop everyone from my party in order to deal with fights.

The Golden Chalice quest in Part 1 got this right, where you get separated from your party during the parts that require you to do solo rogue-y stuff.