Discussion in 'The Bridge Over The River Kawaii' started by Aeon221, Nov 26, 2012.
They have. In Japan. In the western world, not so much. There's your opening.
A note on 'desu' -- it's actually a proper verb, used at the end of a sentence. "Watashi wa IchigoNeko desu" (I am IchigoNeko) is a sentence, but "Watashi wa IchigoNeko" isn't.
You could translate "watashi wa" as "as for me", so "Watashi wa IchigoNeko desu" would be "As for me, I am IchigoNeko".
Really? I had a Japanese tutor from Hokkaido for a few months and he taught me that "Watashi wa" is "I am" (You can also say "Kore wa" as in "This is" so I assumed that wa=am/is/are) and desu does not have to be at the end of a sentence.
Maybe it's my incorrect weeaboo upbringing, but I've heard plenty of anime characters say "Ore wa _____" with no desu at the end and nobody said anything.
I think it might be a thing where it's not technically right but everyone does it anyway. People would understand but it's not grammatically right. I think.
I used Google Fu and found this here:
Further reading explains this more and also explains why I originally thought it doesn't mean a whole lot.
Judging from my 2 years of Japanese lessons, this is correct. Using "desu" is the grammatically correct, formal way to speak, and you can substitute "da" for informal situations. Omitting desu/da completely is grammatically incorrect and very informal/casual but people will understand what you're saying anyway.
Also, this account is kinda-sorta misleading. It's true that "desu" is used in polite/formal speech, but it's also the word that gives the "is" meaning to a sentence.
"Watashi wa Anabanana desu." means "I am Anabanana."
"Watashi wa Anabanana dewa arimasen." means "I am not Anabanana."
(But if you omit it completely people will think you mean "am" by default, but that's not the proper way to speak so don't do it!)
So, in a sense, it makes sense to equate "desu" with "is", even if it's not completely equivalent because of Japanese and English sentences aren't structured in the same way.
Also, for some reason "desu" is also used ironically to mean "cute in an anime way"? As in, "Oh my god Anyabanyanyan is so DESU!" I don't know, it confuses me too. Maybe it's shorthand for "KAWAII DESU" or something, I don't know!
'wa' is actually just a noun marker. It's why sentence order can be messed with in japanese, the markers tell the listener which word is which. 'ga' is another noun marker, when it's used it emphasizes the noun. 'wo'/'o' is a direct object marker and so on. They don't really have counterparts in English.
So a sentence would be Watashi wa nihongo o hanasimasen. = I do not speak Japanese.
'desu' is a polite sentence marker and can be omitted in a sentence, but only in casual speech. Anywhere else is rude.
If any of this is incorrect please tell me, my Japanese is a bit rusty.
Another thing to remember is that Japanese people like to drop the subject from their sentences (it's the same in Chinese). When you're talking, "Sumimasen. Nihongo wo hanasemasen." (Sorry. Can't speak Japanese.) sounds more natural than "Sumimasen. Watashi wa nihongo wo hanasemasen." (Sorry. I can't speak Japanese.)
And now I'm trying to remember whether it should be "hanasemasen" or "hanashimasen" or "hanaseraremasen". Gah. Frickin' Japanese grammar.
A note on "wa": it doesn't mean anything. At least, English doesn't have an equivalent for it. It's what's called a particle, and it indicates the subject of a statement. So, in "watashi wa", it's indicating that "watashi" is the subject of the rest of the statement. In "kore wa", it's indicating that "kore" is etc etc.
THEY HAVE NOW!
Nute I JUST DIED IN YOUR ARMS TONIGHT
I dunno, that guy actually looks more than a little threatening. That hard, unblinking stare is sorta creepy.
So would I be right to presume that "moe" really depends on the viewer rather than the object? What sorts of things do you guys find moe?
That's how I understand it. What we typically think of as "moe" in anime though, are usually what the stereotypical otaku would consider "moe". Cat ears, cutely clumsy girls, tsunderes, yanderes, verbal tics like "ugyuu", meidos... I suspect you know the type.
"Hanashimasen", I'm pretty sure.
As for "moe"...anything I find cute I generally find "moe" because I very easily get the "I-wanna-take-it-home" feeling.
Also, have any of you guys actually seen Kanon? That's where I heard "uguu" from...
Yeaaah, I just never got what was so great about that stuff. I mean, I don't really find it especially cute.
And the boatloads of chronically clumsy girls in anime just makes me think of inner-ear problems.
I've also heard it described where moe is a quality that makes you want to protect the person.
I don't find that particularly cute myself, but that's the kind of stuff associated with the term "moe".
As for what I personally find cute? I WILL scream and go "I WANNA TAKE HER/HIM HOME" whenever I see a cute little kid or baby. I am firmly convinced that this phenomenon is because my body is currently at the peak of its fertility and the reason why my heart won't stop melting and my hands won't stop itching to pinch their cheeks whenever I see adorable little kids is because my body is not very subtly telling me to "HAVE BABIES NOW NOW NOW BEFORE YOUR OVARIES DRY UP". I cannot even step into the "Whose kids are cuter?!" thread without hyperventilating hearts out of my eye sockets.
EDIT: And no, I've never actually seen Kanon. Can't remember where I picked up "uguu" though.
The first series as well as the first episode or two of the remake. Never got around to playing it, though.
OH MAN, DID I MISS THE JAPANESE GRAMMAR CONVERSATION?!
I'm so sad now. I was ready to bust out the -masens and the -nakuchaikemasens and the...
So I was scrolling down the page and I came upon your post and I actually jumped out of my seat a little in surprise, then broke down in laughter. Thank you for that moment.
Just wanted to point out that people could also be talking about the fantastic novel by Vladimir Nabokov, especially if they're English majors/literary nerds like me. I know that personally, I'm a huge fan of Vladimir Nabokov (Lolita's not even my favorite of his books and it's not Pnin or Pale Fire, either, which might be the only other two novels of his you've heard of) and I also love lolita fashion, so I'm probably equally likely to talk about either, with perhaps a slightly stronger leaning toward the novel. If you don't know which Lolita someone is talking about, it's always good to ask, though one good pointer is that lolita the fashion is only sometimes capitalized, while Lolita the novel is pretty much always capitalized, especially since Nabokov's books aren't the lightest reading (though Lolita isn't really that hard, particularly comparatively), so it's more likely that people who read his novels care about grammar.
Another thing that I wanted to add is that when I ship a "pairing" non-romantically I almost never just say that I ship it. I'll usually say that I friendSHIP or FRIENDship it instead. Basically if any form of friendship is being used as a verb, it's probably because the person supports a friendship between two characters.
Lolita comes from the book by Nabokov, as
Nekochi mentioned, and refers to a young girl, generally prepubescent. Loli is a corruption/shortening of lolita and refers to the same thing. Lolita fashion is a particular fashion. Far more commonly used is gothic lolita, often shortened to loligoth, which refers to a fashion style that's a hybrid of the lolita and gothic styles. It looks like this:
To expand on something mentioned later in your post, lolicon is the Japanese word for a pedophile. In English, we already have a word for pedophile (hint: it's pedophile), so lolicon is generally used to refer to pedophilic comics (usually manga). This is similar to how the word manga, in Japan, refers to any comics, but in English it means specifically Japanese comics. In any event, lolicon is also used to refer to those who enjoy lolicon. So in the English-speaking world, you can find lolicons who claim that they are not pedophiles because they aren't attracted to real prepubescent girls. That's a whole other can of worms, though.
Is the 'nope' saying I was wrong or the information was incomplete?
Sorry. I was trying to keep each definition somewhat short, and I obviously haven't included everything that everything could mean. I got a little tired, to be honest.
I wonder, should I make the effort to edit in this information to that post or should I add a link towards this post? Or both?
I love some of the in depth explanation people have added throughout this thread. Maybe adding links could give those who want a more complete understanding of the word in question...?
I like the glossary approach you have in your post. If people want more information, they can just read the discussion; it's not like this is a long thread. Also, I'm pretty sure that people will understand that "lolita" in this case refers to the meaning that's often used in Japanese/anime/manga culture, not the book. You should just add the word "fashion" after "lolita" to make it clear that you're talking about lolita fashion, not lolis.
I have a question myself: Why is "moon" used to refer to Japan? How did that come to be? Because the "Ni" in "Nihon" refers to "sun" or "day", which is the complete opposite!
Primarily wrong. Lolita isn't often used to refer to the fashion style unless it's something obvious like "lolita dress".
I dunno! It'd probably be nice for people to have a handy one-post reference for everything, but it wouldn't be fair to just stick you with the duty of keeping it updated. Do it if you want to, I suppose.
It came from 4chan many years ago. I've not seen moon used on its own to refer to Japan, but moonspeak or moon language refer to the Japanese language, and moon runes refers to written Japanese. The internet says that they can refer to any non-English language, but in practice I've only seen it referring to Japanese. I don't remember the origin of the term, but I do know that it can be derogatory, and it's probably a good idea to avoid its use.
Is it? I always thought that the epithet for Japan was the "land of the rising sun" (thus the flag).
Indeed. The characters for nihon mean sunrise, thus the term.
"Ni" means "sun/day", "hon" means "origin", so put them together and you get, literally, "the origin of the sun" or "where the sun comes from", but that's far less poetic than "land of the rising sun"! :D
Me neither, so that's why I was confused. Also, I don't know if my memory is just making this up, but I seem to recall "moonrunes" used in reference to Chinese as well, though overwhelmingly I've seen it used to refer to written Japanese.
I thought I'd heard moon in reference to Japan (along with 'Land of the Rising Sun') but I could have just mixed things up with the talk of moonrunes, etc.
Should I remove that along with add that it could refer to other Asian languages?
Please call me out if I'm wrong about anything! I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression, nor do I want to continue having the wrong impression about anything.
I'm guessing that moon-runes could refer to anything that doesn't use our alphabet, whether or not it's Asian, such as Russian or Greek or even just languages that mostly use our alphabet, but include additional letters such as Swedish or French. I think it's like how when you say, "it's all Greek to me" it doesn't mean that the language being spoken is Greek, just that you don't understand it anymore than you would Greek, which, if you're using that phrase, is not at all. In fact, it's so commonly used for other languages that actually using it for Greek can be a joke like it was in the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I think it's safe to say that most usages of the phrase moon-runes on this site are going to refer to Japanese, though.
Man, I really can't type anything without going on forever and running off on a big tangent, can I? (This is why I don't have a Twitter account, it doesn't allow enough characters for me to actually say anything.)
I've been guilty of using "moonlanguage" and "moonrunes" to refer to Japanese language and writing, and at least for me it's not a specific association between the moon and Japan so much as, like Nekochi has already said, it's a language I don't understand which uses an alphabet so unfamiliar to me that it might as well be an alien language from the moon for all I am able to parse it.
I have noticed Randissimo (and maybe others?) using strikethrough in a way I'm not familiar with. As an aside, or whisper, or something they are slightly embarrassed about?
Whereas I am used to seeing it used in a sarcastic way to strike out the truth impolite phrasing.
Pretty much this, I think.
I'd say it's generally an aside, or a way to say "disregard this, please, it ruins what I just said".
This thread has enabled me to understand a whole new world of bad jokes on twitter.
briefly considered monetizing kawaii, but then I remembered: moe money, moe problems— Christine Love (@christinelove) December 8, 2012
It doesn't even matter that I didn't laugh. I was entertained by the feeling of "Ooh! I know what those words mean! I'm so clever."
briefly considered monetizing kawaii, but then I remembered: moe money, moe problems— Christine Love (@christinelove) December 8, 2012
briefly considered monetizing kawaii, but then I remembered: moe money, moe problems
I've also noticed that gifs have become the new emoticons. People use them as a sort of shorthand for expressing emotions that would be unwieldy to put into text form.
Either this, or some sort of wink-wink-nudge-nudge remark. Can be also a joke, one not too far off from the sarcastic 'correction' approach you use, though in this case the humour tends to be more self-deprecating.
Pretty much any kind of "pretend I didn't say that" undertone, really.
Yeah, strike-through is interchangeable with tiny text. Not that I would know anything about that
We use "shota" a lot more to refer to the youngest or youngest-looking person in a given game than we do to refer to actual shotas. There's a guy in one game who gets called a "shota" despite the fact that he's 19 and probably older than half the thread's audience.
Separate names with a comma.