Discussion in 'Drama Llama Holding Pen' started by Lum, Jan 25, 2013.
History forever repeats itself.
But as we've explained already, it isn't one more chance. Him being here on Broken Forum constitutes his "one more chance", the same one everybody got. He chose to act in exactly the same fashion that got him kicked off of Qt3, Octopus Overlords and Gaming Trends.
So, serious question: What possible reason would any of us have to believe he would act different if given one more one more chance?
Absolutely! Lum set you and Igadani up on mutual ignore and you guys can't even see each other anymore.
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF
Oh, and if brettmcd wants a better approximation of a clean slate, I recommend acceding to
Charles' idea, and have him rejoin fresh under a new ID. We'll soon see how long it takes him to dirty the slate again.
fwiw if put brett and Pogo in a pit full of lions is an option, I vote for that one.
While I love that idea in the abstract, Brett's poor writing skills and general demeanor would come through no matter what his screen name was. I haven't needed to double-check who wrote a Brett post since probably 2009.
He's not, but that's fine. Here's a test, see how he responds (or doesn't) to the questions mentioned in
Rasputin Jim 's post.
The irony here is that I think getting banned would be in many ways healthy for brett.
Blatant animal cruelty isn't a positive solution.
What issues, specifically, are those brett?
Rasputin Jim :-|
What should be done?
Ever see that episode of Cheers in Season 7, when Cliff Clavin got shock therapy?
<nods> Do that.
Well, you've sort of found a loophole because my complaint is when they ask over and over for brett to respond to the same question, but you're asking him a new question, so that gets you a:
but you know what you're doing is just a loophole and you're aware enough that you're ashamed, so that gets you a:
I take offense too easily to people questioning my opinions and beliefs. Instead of ignoring people who are there just to get a response I escalate the situation too many times where just ignoring them would be the better choice.
I rest my case. As Bill correctly pointed out, the problem in Brett's eyes will never, ever, ever be with him. It will always be with other people.
This is part of the problem, yes. But sometimes, it's also best to civilly respond to people. For example, instead of the "are you still butthurt" things that I saw from you relatively recently, just kinda...walk away. Literally, if necessary. Also, there are times when you say things that just aren't okay, which is what causes people to get upset with you.
I feel that while Brett takes some time to take this thread and its words to heart, he should be banned from the Political and Drama Llama forums. Final judgement.
Do you see any problem with the way you present your opinions and beliefs? Is there a reason you don't respond to the people that try to sincerely engage you about them?
I get told over and over I am lying about my beliefs that I must be a conservative republican for the beliefs I have (which is in no way correct as I have pointed out many times the beliefs I have that are completely against what the GOP believes). So its hard to believe anyone is serious in engaging me about anything regarding politics. Too many times in the past it becomes a hunt for a gotcha moment to come back with.
So yes there is a problem with how I present my opinions at this time, as it has been shaped by far too many online debates in the past. Can I change that? Of course, but I don't see a lot people here accepting any change as enough anymore.
So yes I do accept blame for how things turn out many times in political discussions here, but there is a reason and a background to it.
I looked. Less than 10%, easily. What percentage of those replies to Brett are JUST calling him an idiot, with no content or rebuttal of his stance? About 50% of those 10%.
I wouldn't call it reasoning, I'd call it projection.
As evidenced by my awesome new avatar, I don't actually have a problem with this. I also don't drag the indictments around with me from thread to thread.
I haven't discussed your body of work, nor do I intend to, I just remarked on what kind of poster you are.
Yeah, bullshit. I phrased my post that way because actually attempting to get you to not generalize the opinions of everyone in this thread was a waste of fucking time. I don't care that you just said that you could do better in two of the forums on here, because you don't (or won't) understand why your posts get the reactions they do.
Where are these excuses? Why didn't Lum make a thread asking what to do about Rago or Bill? I can find several posts attempting to argue that you shouldn't be banned for your "body of work," but I don't see any excusing of my shittiest replies. I know why I've been banned, do you really know why there is a thread asking if you should be?
Those posts pale greatly in comparison to posts that have asked you to explain why you hold the beliefs you do. If you respond at all, it's a backhanded reply with a strawman about the poster's own beliefs.
Dear lord. You respond to people asking you to legitimize your opinions by calling them trolls, or not responding at all. You've been doing it for years, with the same exact opinions. You've got it backwards, you're actually great at ignoring people who are insulting you.
Go in separate corners and just don't communicate with each other.
That's my last post in this thread, and a promise to completely ignore Brett. You all have fun with this hilarious and insincere moment of "Is BrettMCD Going to Find Jesus?" Let me know in a month how it works out.
Actually Pogo has as much right to post in this thread as anyone. He has been called out by name several times.
I find Brett annoying sometimes, but not actively toxic. I'd rather keep him around. I, unlike some others, am capable of a) ignoring him when he's being a derp and b) tolerating derails. In fact, I am very, very comfortable with derails, even if the thread is about something I think is important. He can be a troll, but man. He's such a harmless one.
This isn't a response to Brett, but to
This right here is why you should ban Brett. If you had banned him outright instead of making this thread, I would have hammered the like button with the fury of the gods. But seeing how conflicted you were over it and how many people think he should stick around, I began questioning it too. Until this comment. You and I and everyone else knows that many people, including you, have tried to engage with Brett in good faith. And you know how that turned out. And finally the reason for all those inevitable outcomes is made clear: because Brett believes everyone in the world is just out to troll him. I can find no reason to keep someone like that around.
Purely out of curiosity, Brett - with no malice, here - why do you think you've been banned from so many forums? How many forums would you say you've been banned from, at this point in your life? What I'm getting at, Brett, is this - do you think the problem is with you, or do you think the problem is with the entire rest of the internet?
Ive been permanently banned from 2 forums Octopus overlords and QT3, that is all. And is being banned from QT3 really something this forum holds against someone? I don't know where people are getting this ive been banned from dozens of forums or some BS like that. I still post at GT occasionally which someone in this thread claimed I was banned from.
As for the rest yes as I have stated I have issues I need to deal with, not sure how many times I have to state that.
To be honest threads like this, attempts to engage brett, talks of second chances or partial bans, to me they all feel patronizing/insulting (I'm sure that's not the intention, and others will legitimately disagree). I think nobody here would put up with the kind of stuff brett routinely posts if it came from anybody else. For whatever reason he's not capable of interacting with the community in a productive way, and to me the conclusion to draw from this is kinda obvious. To keep him around would amount to a double standard, a kind of misguided pity for his internet persona which, like all internet personas, deserves none. Imo the decent thing to do is to assume he's a functioning adult, and treat him like one - feel free (though not obliged) to insult/flame him for the dumb shit he says (within reason and the general standards set by Lum) and if that keeps happening for too long ban him.
Madkevin said this too, and I still don't get it. I think it's clear that a lot of people would and do put up with the kind of stuff he routinely posts. Otherwise he'd be gone by now, as it's not like he has some overwhelmingly redeeming qualities.
If you don't believe anyone is serious in engaging you, why post? All I have ever seen you do when people respond to you is ignore them, or call them trolls and assholes. You have a ranking system for assholes.
Either you are an insincere poster or you are so dumb and inane that the point is moot. Again, why do you post?
I remember people falling all over themselves to be nice to you when you appeared at BF. Its my impression that you have been given every benefit of the doubt and you haven't changed at all. What is mindbending is that you have acted exactly the same going all the way back to Octopus Overlords.
Lots of people here have disagreements with each other. Sometimes those disagreements have turned into vicious fights, but you are the only one I can think of that has a problem with everyone, all the time. This is one of the most mature, sincere and genial boards on the internet. You wouldn't be noticed on somewhere like Free Republic and you would just be banned anywhere else. You can say whatever you like in this thread, showing an ability to respond like a real human being doesn't override* 10 years of brettistory that tells me you cannot and will not change.
*In fact, that you are able to post like a real person here pretty much shows what how insincere you are everywhere else - that's what we call a Catch-22.
I just like watching train-wrecks and flamewars, which happen in many threads Brett participates in. It's kinda fucked up but it's great popcorn reading <insert MJpopcorn.gif>.
I'm also getting what
Saccaroa is saying -- there is a kinda gross haze over this discussion of Brett that definitely feels patronizing. It's like when the Gus thread got made and it seems to be a trend when the forum discussion gets meta on posters. The discussions seem to take away agency from the poster being discussed. Like has been mentioned, they are grown fucking adults, not unhappy or left out or bullied 11 year olds.
Brett's had octopus overlords, quartertothree, and his entire time on here to change his ways. He hasn't. If Lum restricts him to his "problem-free" areas, who's to say he won't just bleed his brettness into those forums instead of their prior outlet? He can chatter on and on about how he can change but he's been banned twice, and criticized (fairly and perhaps unfairly) incessantly between, and continuing to now. Those all would be red flags to most people. But not brett. He's been given several benefits of the doubt, and has tripped over every one of them and accused it of trolling.
Also, have we gone to this much trouble to accommodate any other poster?
People speak to Brett like he's eleven years old because that is how he presents himself. Being patronising is fully justified.
That's a worthwhile point. I can understand how to a lot of you - who have 'interacted' with Brett for a decade or more - would see this whole thread as foolish or a waste of time or bullshit or whatever. And you're probably right that these patterns will repeat themselves again exactly as before. There are a few issues that are interesting here, regarding communities and how they persist across different frameworks or mediums, and when they start and end, and whether the precedents should carry over between them. Obviously, Brett's rep isn't based a mass hallucination - anyone who's read his posts for more than a week can see the pattern of masturbatory self-immolation, especially in political threads. And there's no doubt that there are smaller, overlapping communities within this particular website's collection of grimdark souls, cheery weeaboos and others, and that Brett's personal rep is going to follow him around whenever he's in contact with people with whom he has a shared history. But I still think it's useful for the community in the here and now on BF to actually talk about matters that affect it as a whole, given that we aren't all old hands at Brettitude.
I'm inclined to agree that this will play out the way you predict, given that a substantial portion of BF has a long history with Bretty and has seen this all happen before. I'm just inclined to have a bit more belief in reform because I don't have that same history.
EDT: I totally didnt mean to type "Bretty" but I think its fucking hilarious that I didnt even notice it.
Really, look, I sympathise with the ideals of reform. But in my career of arguing on the internet, if there's one thing I've learned it is that not everyone is worth the time and effort it would take to reform them via the internet. Life's too short; leisure time even shorter (for most of us). We're under no obligation, legally, morally or otherwise, to help make brettmcd into a better debater or a better forum member, let alone a better person. Why take it on? What do we stand to gain?
Ive been temp banned once, there are others here that have had multiple temp bans. So yes others have had more chances here.
Yeah, I guess you'd think that if you'd been plopped down on this planet two hours ago with no information on how people behave whatsoever. You're seriously going to sit there and act all "tut-tut" disappointed that people aren't acting like they do on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood? As an FYI, that does not encourage anyone to take your viewpoint on this type of matter with any weight whatsoever.
You, personally? Probably nothing. We as a community? I don't know, to tell you the truth. Probably nothing. If you applied that same question to anyone, though, you may get similar answers. BF doesn't really stand to 'gain' anything by helping anyone become a better person, but I think a lot of people here would say this forum has helped inform them or 'improve' them in some small way. But I realize you have no reason to believe that's remotely possible as far as Brett's concerned.
(I was going to say "Do you really want him becoming a die-hard Freeper, assuming he isn't already??" and then I realized the answer to that question is undoubtably a resounding "YES!!!")
Temp bans are usually responses to specific incidents of rulebreaking and aren't generally used as a final last, we really mean it this time really warning. I'm sure that you know this and are conflating the two deliberately for some reason. The fact that you still think your problem is other people says everything about your inability to change.
Bingo. Give me a reason to believe it might work, and I'll fight like hell to try and convince you.
Separate names with a comma.