The brettmcd situation

A freeper???? Never, the only time ive ever been to that site is following links from either here or QT3. Id be considered too liberal for them, I believe in things like gay rights and gay marriage, and dont think the death penalty will solve all our crime problems.

Well, see? The tingle means its working!

Random question, would you say that your interactions here and on Qt3 have changed your overall positions on political or social issues? If so, were they changes toward more conservative or more liberal ends of the spectrum?

On gay marriage/gay rights it has most certainly changed me to more liberal. I was indifferent on the subject for most of my life as I lived in a small town growing up and never really knew anyone who was openly gay so I never saw how the issue affected people. Once I read accounts online and got to know a few people who were openly gay I became a very strong supporter of their rights. Same thing with the death penalty as I read more of what people on Qt3 posted I went from a strong supporter to a strong opponent.

Sorry if this is a derail or outside this thread scope, just wanted to answer superjay.

Look into your heart Lum! Look into your heart!


How did that turn out again? Oh yeah...

I say we just throw him in the lake. If he floats, ban him.

I don't think you understand what is happening in this thread if you believe that is what I mean by accommodation.

I don't really have any reason to believe it would either. But the reasons I have to believe it wouldn't are the collective experiences of a particular group of people who form a portion of this community. And while they're probably right that the same pattern will repeat (because that's what humans usually do is repeat patterns), for this BF community - in the here and now - it may be important to make that determination for itself, rather than just accept the pre-set conclusions of a portion of its membership. Does that make sense?

To some degree it's an experiment that should draw conclusions from evidence. If Lum removes his access to sub-forums and gives him a clear last chance and blows it, then it's a perma-ban and we're not much worse off for one more month of Brett. If the consensus is to shut that whole thing down right now, that's unfortunate for Brett but life will go on for everyone involved.

To be clear, I don't think you personally should have a different opinion of Brett or believe he's willing / able to make a good-faith effort toward integrating himself more effectively into this community. Because your experiences have formed your viewpoint, but your experiences aren't everyone else's, and this community isn't only GamingTrend / Octopus Overlords / Qt3, Redux Edition.

It's kind of ironic that it's taken a thread like this to actually get you to respond in good faith to people asking you questions or trying to talk to you. So much of the reason that people have gotten used to just writing you off and responding to you with flames comes down to the fact that there is an expectation that when challenged, or disagreed with, you'll simply ignore it and barrel on with your arguments. That's the core fundamental reason that your participation in political threads leads to these massive, unpleasant derails - and we, all of us, had gotten used to making the exact same assumption that you do - that it's simply bad faith. If you actually acted in political threads like you're acting here - if you had attempted to engage directly and assume good faith - it would have changed everything. We wouldn't be where we are today. I have no idea if it's already too late to change things, but it can't hurt to try, brettmcd.

So I wrote a big long response and deleted it, because it's pointless and anyone who cares knows exactly what I think of Brett's negative value to this community. Instead:

You don't get it. It isn't a pogo issue.

I'm not saying it's an individual issue kind of thing. I'm saying it's a "you obviously can not play nicely with each other, so just leave each other lone" kind of thing. That is why I typed both names.

But he has apparently assumed bad faith in EVERY forum he's been on (assuming what he's saying is true), because this routine has repeated itself over and over. And he claims he assumes bad faith because people question his beliefs.... People question his beliefs because he argues in bad faith. This is not a chicken or egg routine, HE is the clear start of this supposed cycle.

But Pogo keeps getting name dropped, thus he has every right to respond.

He has the right to respond, yes. I'm not saying that he doesn't. I was simply saying that the both of them would probably be happier if they just didn't associate with each other at all.

But this thread is all about whether that interaction will even be an issue.

I'm thinking it's like this: There are 3/4 layers of brett interaction:

1) You have not been offended or bothered by any of brett's interactions or comments. You've seen a few things here and there, so you know where this is coming from, but overall, you're an outsider to it. I fall here.
2) You have been offended or bothered by any of brett's interactions or comments. You've read something that has bothered you and with that being the case, you have come here to discuss his fate with a slight bias.
3) You've been seriously offended or bothered by any of brett's interactions or comments, but it's stayed impersonal. You have not personally been attacked, but you are most certainly not okay with what you have seen.
4) You've been gravely bothered by any of brett's interactions and have been personally insulted. This is the area where Pogo falls. He was called out specifically by name, so I have to assume that there is a history of these two butting heads before, multiple times. In the interest of this thread not turning into a "WELL YOU'RE A DUMBBUTT" "WELL YOU'RE A BUTTFACE" (in obviously more articulate ways), I suggested that they just not associate with each other.

It's all good if everyone else talks about said interaction, but I'm thinking it's far more productive if volatile persons don't really...engage. Do you understand what I'm trying to say here?

Mui: you're discounting brett's tendency to come into threads and lay a big steaming poop and then turn the thread into being about him and how he's being so put upon by the rest of us. It'd be nice of people could ignore that, but this is the internet and while most of us actually do, not everyone does.

All of the problem threads are in the Sanctum. I know almost anything goes there, but the problem isn't so much his behavior as it is the disruptive effect he has there. So many threads there just end up being about him that it's almost pointless. So I say ban him from there only, let it be better even if it's still shouty, and let his apparently decent posts in other forums keep coming.

So, my two cents: if Lum's not going to just ban the toxic little turd, a half-measures thing where he loses posting access to the Sanctum, Drama Llama, and anywhere else he's problematic seems like a decent compromise.

I'm pretty skeptical of any claims he'll change, though. In the past he has been pretty good at finding juuuuuust where the line beyond which he'll be banned is and staying right there. I honestly don't believe for a second that he's having some epiphany -- I think it's far more likely that he's just bullshitting because he thinks it's the tactic that'll save him and will be right back to normal when he thinks things have cooled down.

Anyway. Life's too short to deal with people who can't play well with others. Let him find some other swimming pool to piss in.

Assuming he actually does do this (which I'm going to have to take as truth, considering how many people have said it), then okay. I'm not discounting anyone's decisions on what they feel should be the proper actions taken. If you want him to be banned, go ahead and want it. If you want him to take a time out, want it. Want him banned from certain areas? Go ahead! Want to give him free reign of the forum? OKAY THAT'S COOL.

All I've said was that I think he should be banned from particular problem areas and that Pogo and Brett should probably avoid speaking to each other since they're kinda on bad terms with each other.

If you're going to ban someone from the fucking Sanctum, you might as well just toss them out completely.

If brett was banned from the Sanctum, would that forum even need to exist anymore?

I know it originally started as a ghetto to isolate the MRA idiots, but now that they've been banned, I view the Sanctum as the "Political discussions that allow brett's participation" forum. Are there any posters other than him who are unable to participate in civil discussion in the regular politics forum?

While we're on the subject of banning, I just want to point out that if you ban Nute, we'll all be that much closer to being the second-worst arguer on BF. Don't kill the dream.

Otterloop.