The unofficial Windows 8 thread

I think I'll just not bother furthering this weird discussion.

You may quote me on that.

Also, what dermot said above.

I did quote you, the first time I replied. I'm not going to go and put together a multi-quote post, because I'm on my phone and all of your posts on the matter are on this page anyway. Kerzain (which autocorrects to "let's aim") wondered why he couldn't manipulate system files via the Start screen search function, and someone replied to say that it's not the sort of task that the Start screen search is meant to do. Then you asked why you would change your file explorer interface just because of the type of file, and I responded that the Start screen search is not a file explorer. You responded to say that it lists files, so how is it not a file explorer? I clarified by explaining that it is not of the type of file explorer that kerzain is talking about, i.e. a full-fledged file manager that lets you edit directories, move files around, and access system files, ala Windows Explorer. It is instead intended to fill the same role as the Windows 7 Start menu search, which will also find programs and files, but only for the purpose of launching programs. At this point you declared some sort of semantic victory because I described it using the words "file" and "explorer," but my original point still remains: it works the same as Start search has always worked, and it was never intended to be a tool that lets users mess with system files.

yawn.

...

Anyway, I installed Windows 8 RTM yesterday so that I could have a look at some problem that we're having with one of our products. I've only used the Consumer Preview up to now. I looooove the new design for the desktop - all of those rectangular blocks are lovely.

Is there somewhere I can look at app sales charts on the web, ala the iTunes App Stores' Top Grossing/Top Downloads? I don't plan to install Windows 8, but I'm interested in seeing how the Metro platform is shaping up.

I hope they're aiming higher than that!

My PC seems to be having sleep problems. Sometimes I sleep it and it immediately wakes up and I have to sleep it again. It never wakes up immediately the second time.

Sometimes I come to wake my PC from sleep only to find it has gone into hibernate mode, except hibernate isn't on. So it must be using hybrid sleep, except it should only be POSTing if there was a power failure, which there hasn't been.

Note that the application set is exactly the same as in Windows 7. It could be a dodgy driver I suppose.

I am never going to like WIN-I as a shortcut.

I'm getting EN-US as a keyboard option alongside EN-GB, but when I go to the keyboard list to remove it it isn't there, only EN-GB is. I had to add and then remove EN-US.

I think install base is going to be the primary factor. Metro apps will take off because Metro is going to be everywhere.

Isn't hybrid sleep specifically for desktops? I thought that was the write to HDD in case of a power loss? I don't want to turn it off because then I'll never solve the problem. I hate working around an issue, it feels like I'm wasting an opportunity to learn.

It could be a USB device, but all the devices are the same as before. Still, driver differences and all that, I'll probably need to work through them.

So I realize that I am kind of late to the Windows 8 "try it out" party, but after 24 hours, I am extremely happy with it. I decided that I was going to try to embrace the whole metro aesthetic as much as I could and see if I actually liked it.

The mail/people/calendar integration is fantastic, and pulled my gmail account up instantly. I like that so much that I dropped the multiple account stuff from gmail and instead have everything running through the mail app. I like that each address has a separate pane in the app, and its much more slick than the "multiple inboxes" setup I had to use in gmail proper. So a big thumbs up to Microsoft there.

I am utterly baffled by Microsoft not letting you use your own tiles, as installing Office 2010 created these horrible looking icon tiles on the start page, which you CANT CHANGE. After a little research, I found Oblytile, and got a set of much nicer replacement icons from deviantart that make the start page look a lot nicer.

Other than that, no real complaints. I bought the upgrade and did a clean install, and it went as smoothly as any install of Windows I have ever done.

So, when you install a piece of software that isn't metro native (ie, most pieces of software these days), they dont come with the "tile" icons that the start page uses. Instead is creates a light grey square with the icon in the center. Compared to the rest of the tiles, these are hideous.

However, Microsoft, in its "wisdom" didn't make the tiles editable. IE, you cant simply choose another picture for that tile. As far as I can tell, the only way to change the look of a certain tile is to go get a piece of third party software.

After using it for a while I think this is the first version of Windows where I'm feeling like I took a step back. This hasn't happened before, 95 through 7 I always found the positives outweighed the negatives (never tried ME), but in Windows 8 the changes seem to be a net negative to me.

I dislike all the things that moved to Metro because with the desktop being a metro tile I have no visibility on that stuff. If I'm running something on the desktop I can see whether it's running or not, but if it's a Metro app I don't know if it's up. Can I switch to it from the top-left? Do I need to launch it from start? It's so opaque.

I dislike the theme, the transparency of the taskbar doesn't still well with the solid colours, and the solid colours look primitive rather than minimalist.

I can no longer monitor things like weather or torrents through gadgets, that's what Metro is for. Unfortunately that means flicking back and forth between the Start Screen/Metro app and the desktop, rather than just shifting my eyes or dropping the mouse to the "Show gadgets only" corner that Windows 7 had.

I don't like the categorisation of things on the Start Screen during searches, it takes longer to perform tasks I was doing in Windows 7.

Even the logon screen (after account selection) is uglier

I think Metro looks like a great environment, but on my desktop computer every Metro change seems to have been at the expense of the desktop. Separately they're all minor things, this isn't end of the world stuff, but each is another little annoyance. I can't really name anything that Windows 8 is doing better for me than 7 did. Start-up time maybe? Except who cares? Vista solved that back when it made sleep the default option and you realised shutting down was a waste of time.

EDIT: I like being able to customise the lock screen pic. It boggles my mind a little that they have wallpaper rotation but that's too advanced for the lock screen, but whatever.

I hate almost everything about Windows 8.

Why doesn't uninstalling something from the Start screen actually uninstall it? Why can't I uninstall programs in parallel? Why doesn't clicking on the Start button in the Start screen give me an old-style window with expandable bars? And why does Microsoft STILL suck at handling driver updates?

Why does it take six button presses more than it used to to get to the uninstall programs menu?

Gaaaahhh.

And even after I install these new drivers there's no guarantee that games will function properly rather than vomiting all over everything ever.

?

Because being anything other than full screen is completely pointless for a something which closes once it loses focus.

Windows Update actually bitched at me that I didn't have the up-to-date video driver. I have a more recent driver. It wants me to roll back. Onboard sound driver? Same, though at least without the kvetching at me that I should install the new old driver.

Sure, I configured it to not do that anymore, but holy fuck, that's just goddamn wrong.

I recognize every word you wrote, but put them together and they don't answer my question.

The new start screen fails at about 75% of why I want a start screen in the first place, which is to collate everything somewhere where I can scroll through and find it all. Where's Find? Where's Run? Where's the control panel? Why aren't things grouped into folders a-la previous versions, so that the five different AIMP shortcuts aren't individually cluttering my screen? Functionality wise, the old start menu filled a niche of its own. The new start menu is just a less-functional replacement for my desktop screen.

It's not wrong, it just looks for whether you have a newer WHQL signed driver or not. If your drivers aren't WHQL signed then it will offer drivers. Entirely optional drivers which are not included by default. You have to specifically go into Windows update and choose to install them.

None of which have to do with a smaller window with expandable borders.

The search box is Run. Control Panel is found by typing "Control Panel".

Did you skip Vista and 7 or did you just not adjust to the new, superior, way of using the Start Menu? The Start Screen is simply building on that. Type, type, type.

Things can be grouped, but I'll admit it's clumsy and the zoom thing is a discoverability nightmare. But really, you shouldn't use the mouse here at all, it's a sub-optimal method of working with the Start Screen, and even the Start Menu post-XP.

Or it could see that my driver's release date is newer and not presume that WHQL is at all fucking relevant, which it isn't.

I think you misunderstood my complaint.

I want something that lets me expandably browse through my files and applications a-la Windows 7's Start menu. That's useful, it's functionality that is no longer present in Windows 8.

I acknowledge that the new Start screen is not built to be navigated with the mouse. That doesn't mean it's superior. Sometimes I like using a mouse. For one thing, using a keyboard one-handed is a pain in the ass; for another, it's often faster and more precise. Oh, and you don't have to remember exactly what something is called; you can just ... gasp... look for it in the menu which collates every single program and utility installed on your computer, which is exactly what the Windows 7 Start Menu provided me.

And it's fucking inexcusably stupid that I can't group things in exactly the way they could be grouped in Windows 7; are we now removing functionality for removal's own sake? Is handling folders and grouping something that Android phones, iPhones, and computers of every kind have figured out but that Microsoft is suddenly incapable of?

The fact that they put the settings thing in the lower right hand corner instead of expandable from the right side of the screen is stupid on a laptop without a touch screen. I don't give a shit about gestures, I care about having a sane UI paradigm for my computer specifically.

I don't see an option to change my control panel view to the old style that actually displays all of the options, rather than making me search through it. And no, "You now have to type things instead of selecting them from a menu" is not a move forward in UI design. I could already do that in Windows 7. I had the option to do both! I see no reason why that functionality should have been removed.


And the solution that I've heard from all of my friends is "Download Start8 to fix all of your problems", but I don't want to give money to Brad fucking Wardell.

It is to Microsoft because they haven't tested your driver, so perhaps it's something you want to replace because it's unreliable. If you don't want Microsoft tested drivers then you go to the product manufacturer, not Microsoft.

You can do this in Windows 8, right-click on the Start Screen and choose All Apps

Discoverability is the weakness of the Start Screen and Windows 8 in general.

You really should move away from the mouse for this though, it was less efficient for doing this from the second Vista introduced the Start Menu search pane.

They can be, but again, discoverability. Click the little minus to zoom out and you can name those icon groupings when you right-click them.

It's a move forward because you used to need to know which control panel app you needed to perform the function you wanted. From Windows 7 onwards there a million links which open them all based around tasks e.g. "Change when the computer sleeps".

The only thing the old Start Menu did better was the way it handled categorising. Having to Tab between groups, and empty ones not collapsing automatically, is annoying.

The fact that Microsoft is under the delusion WHQL is relevant matters only to me inasmuch as it's a mistake and I think less of Microsoft for it.

That's an improvement! Now how do I make it default to All Apps?

I like using the mouse for browsing and selecting from icons. It lets me review my options. It's ... kinda part of the ritual of gaming for me, I guess.

Yeah, but I want, for example, AIMP to be a group within the group of whatever, Apps I guess, and then when you mouse over or click on it, it either zooms in or does a radial menu or something (I'm not a UI designer, I'm just describing the functionality I want) and then I can select from the sub-things.

Except that they could have included the search bar and left the old functionality, which would have been an actual step forward, instead of a step forward and a step back at the same time. But maybe I feel that way because it's new; on this, that's possible.

Again, the ability to browse expandably through files and applications (for example, to browse through the My Music or My Documents or Download folders) through the start menu was actually useful to me.

The problem is you're basing this off your personal experience, they're basing it off support costs and massive amounts of data.

You can't.

I used to like using my joystick for controlling FPSs. Then I stopped. Now I like the mouse and keyboard. Because it's superior.

Even so, the Start Screen, being full screen, is better for browsing than the Start Menu ever was.

I believe it only supports a single level.

I disliked the new Windows XP menu when it arrived and turned it off. Later I turned it back on. The classic menu was actually measurably inferior in every way, yet I still meet people who say it's better, even though you can count in clicks that it's not. People hate change.

I think the Start Screen is, at worst, two steps forward and two steps back. I wouldn't call it worse, but it's certinaly not as good as it should be and is a great example of the compromises Metro is forcing on desktop users.

Why would you not just pin them to your taskbar then? Right-click, My Music or My Documents, and then you're browsing.

Sure. Or in other words, my use-case is not their priority. That's fine. From my perspective, because as a consumer I don't give a fuck about use-cases that aren't relevant to my experience, WHQL is a net negative, if not as much of a net negative as GFWL.

That's stupid as fuck.

Search-based browsing is in no way strictly superior to a visual icon display. They fulfill different purposes.

Also stupid as fuck.

Fine, I'll take that. "Two steps forward and two steps back", with glaring defects.

Because I want to be able to browse the folders in the sidebar instead of opening a separate window? One that by default only shows one level at a time, whereas if I want to browse through my books, maybe I want to see the list of author folders as well as the author subfolder that I'm currently looking at?

You can access the list of programs that can be uninstalled in three clicks:

1. Right-click the lower-left corner of the screen.
2. Select Control Panel.
3. Select Programs and Features.

Uninstall programs at your leisure. Note that this is the same number of clicks it took in Windows 7.

I don't have a "Programs and Features" in the Control Panels. I did, however, somehow add "Programs" to the Control Panel, though it wasn't there before. I kinda wish I remembered what I did to do it!

(Also, instead of right-clicking the lower left - which makes very little sense, incidentally, - I can mouse to the bottom right - and why not just the right side? because fuck you, touchscreen tablets - and selected Settings -> Control Panels.)

Your experience is weird. While I agree that the fusion of traditional Windows desktop and Metro/Modern is kludgy, I think you may have a special cursed version of Windows 8.

If you right-click in the lower left corner and select Control Panel there, do you still get the truncated version?

Yes.

Cursed!

Right-clicking on the bottom right gives me "Show Desktop" and "Peek at Desktop".

Confusion is solved!

I've grown to hate Windows 8 less already except for the inability to have expandable groups.

Or this: http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Oh good god DO NOT WANT