Discussion in 'Technologics' started by Creole Ned, Oct 24, 2012.
The file copy dialog is much improved, there's that at least.
Having used Windows 8 for two weeks, here's my collection of blog posts on the subject:
Asus Xonar DGX8 on Windows 8 -- this sound card has working drivers, Creative Labs X-Fi unsurprisingly doesn't (they lose settings on non-hibernation restart).
Rise of Nations on Windows 8 -- it's still working, after adjusting some .ini settings!
Classic Shell for Windows 8 -- a necessity, and obviously I'm using Windows 2000 mode because that was the best Windows UI.
Windows 8, the Desktop Smartphone -- if Microsoft is serious about bringing content creation to tablets they shot themselves in the foot by adopting an iOS-style blown-up smartphone UI.
Eew, Eew, eww, why, oh why would someone make a somewhat nifty, if entirely knee-jerk unnecessary IMHO, thing like this, but then cock it up by having it install IE9 by default? IE10 is heads and shoulders faster than IE9, especially when it comes to HTML5 implementation. Stuff that runs at frames per second in Chrome or IE10 will run at seconds per frame in IE9.
Also, I'm still amazed that people love the start menu, one thing i like about win8, beyond being able to just Pin stuff that I actually use, is that I can just start typing from the start menu, and find the executable I'm looking for.
I what now? Who installs IE9 by default?
Classic Shell offers optional modifications for IE9 on older Windows versions since it's not exclusive to Windows 8. This has nothing to do with its start menu for Windows 8, and it certainly doesn't install IE9 on Windows 8. How could it?
That's how Win7 worked too, in both regards.
Sorry I misread your article. =)
Heh, exactly which is why I wonder why people get all up in arms about Win 8 =) It's virtually the same once you un-metro the thing. Which I agree, is annoying on a desktop, I really wish they had a streamlined install option that didn't default everything to the metro version.
My boss has insisted that we move to Windows 8, and then insisted that we put that godawful mess of a classic shell on the systems. Fuck Classic Shell. It's slow and shitty.
Classic Shell is awesome. You must be doing it wrong or something.
Half the time on these machines when I hit the windows key and start typing, the fraction of a second lag is long enough that the fake start menu hasn't come up in time and so it's useless for quick searches. Not so the actual start screen, which is damn fast. And who wants to troll through the folders when they could just use incremental search anyway?
CRAZY PEOPLE THAT'S WHO.
So trying to install Linux side by side with Windows is an interesting experience now that Windows 8 is specifically designed to try to prevent you from doing so.
That is all.
No it isn't.
Yeah, what the hell are you talking about,
I'm guessing he's talking about UEFI secure boot mechanism and that he doesn't realise Microsoft require that the option to turn it off exist to receive "Designed for Windows 8" certification.
UEFI secure boot being off wasn't playing nice with trying to rebuild the MBR after windows shat itself because apparently that's what it does when GRUB doeesn't ask nicely enough or something.
Maybe I just have terrible luck with technology.
This may have already been noted but I figure it doesn't hurt to mention it again: if your Nvidia GPU drivers fail to install, try de-selecting Nvidia Update. There seems to be a compatibility issue here for some W8 installations. It may be an issue for folks like me who performed an upgrade instead of a clean install (I know, I know).
WISE FWOM YOU GWAVE!
If there's another forum that covers Windows 8, I apologize to you fine people! Anyway, my last laptop just withered under my manly grasp, so I picked up a new one. The short story is that I had never used Windows 8 until today, which puts me probably a fair bit behind the technology curve (windows 7 has served me like a great general of the ancient steppe, buried now in the hinterland of my closet). The adjustment period from one iteration to the next didn't mirror the horror stories I heard (and read) from others, so I'm wondering if I am missing something integral in the first few hours of usage or if the operating system is actually user-friendly and people simply hate mild change. I find myself "reaching" for things that are either misplaced or not there anymore (mostly non-essentials), and I feel like I've started relying on desktop shortcuts more than I'd like, but I don't hate the program like I thought I would.
But I DO want to know what the general consensus with shell programs is (at least, on this forum, I know you guys are all the same), especially with programs like Classic Shell. Should I have a start button, or will I learn to use the touch pad shortcuts with the same fluid comfort as a mouse (to clarify, I do not have a touch screen)? I hear that the next version of Windows 8 might incorporate a start button. Is Windows going to be all atavistic like that, really? Right now, I feel like I'm skipping the cyclopean construction of the Metro and going straight to the desktop because I'm just acculturated to it. Is that going to be enough? What are programs like Pokki? Am I looking at this "app" thing the right way? What am I missing by akkin' like the Metro ain't thar?
Generally, I was hoping to reopen Windows 8 discourse.
Why should you care whether other people use Classic Shell or not? Windows 8 is an operating system, not a self-improvement program...
Use it, see how you like the Start Screen. If two months down the line you find it isn't working for you then get StartIsBack. I found the tabbing between categories annoyed me enough that I switched, but you'll only find out yourself through usage of the Start Screen.
arstechnica did a good article about the various shells
Welcome to the Internet.
Well, the first thing is that people hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate change. All change. If Google increases the whitespace on GMail, people write rage-filled screeds, so a major reworking of the OS was pretty much guaranteed to draw the bile.
That said: My initial reaction was pretty much the same as yours -- meh, whatevs, seems basically the same as Win7 -- but the longer I used it, the more annoyed I became with it. Basically, it took Win7 and then added lots of little annoyances.
For instance: I kept my taskbar on the right-hand side of the screen (as horizontal space is less precious than vertical), and every time I went over to click on it, I accidentally brought out the charms popup. (And the hot corner for the start menu was still in the lower left, instead of moving with the taskbar, which seemed weird, but I never click that anyway.) The search was de-integrated, so I'd hit the Win key, and start typing "Power" or something like that to get to the power management part of Control Panel, and the only thing that would come up was PowerShell, because Control Panel searching was hidden away somewhere else, and I couldn't get to it easily. The "Windows has updated and is going to reboot, haha, hope you weren't doing anything you wanted to keep doing" dialog lost it's "not now, you idiot" button, so I ended up getting involuntarily rebooted periodically. The options to shut down the computer are cleverly hidden to the point where I still couldn't reliably tell someone how to manually reboot their computer without sitting there and going "maybe this? no wait, I think it's over here."
Basically, the longer I used it, the more little niggling annoyances popped up (including the OS periodically losing track of my TrackPoint, which is why I spent so much time hunting for the manual reboot option). And probably 8.1 will fix most of them, which is great for people reading this post in the future, but as it stands today, Win8 is a legitimately bad OS (compared to Win7, Ubuntu, or presumably OSX), not just for change-haters.
It's got a great copy dialog box, though.
Windows 8 is not legitimately bad, it works decently enough. It does have some less-than-optimal design choices and rough edges (edges, get it?) but these seem inevitable in any major OS revamp, especially one that tries to bridge the gap between desktop PC and tablet/touch-based usage, something it does awkwardly.
That said, the annoyances never really go away, you just get used to them or find ways to work around them. I would not at this point consider going back to Windows 7, though, because the quirks and annoyances are not enough to make me want to revert the entire OS. If you spend most of your time with the desktop (which I do) it's entirely possible you may avoid the annoyances most of the time.
The rumored changes in 8.1 are interesting. If true, it would amount to some major concessions from Microsoft that some parts of Windows 8 just don't work well (notably if they bring back the Start button). I'd be happy for them to backtrack on some of the stuff they've implemented and take the time to better integrate new systems into Windows 9.
(The quickest way to get to the Restart option is to access Settings from the Charms menu (Win-C) and select Power or hit the Win key to go to the Start screen and type 'restart'.)
When you make Windows 8 work how you want it, as a knowledgeable techy person, it works great. But the metro apps are awful as a primary way of using your computer with a mouse and keyboard, and that's what Windows wants them to be when you first install it. That's the thing that makes Windows 8 worthy of criticism to me.
Yeah, although Microsoft has made improvements to most of the included Metro/Modern apps, the only one I really look at semi-regularly is the weather one. I'd be curious to see how many people on PCs stick to that interface vs. moving over to regular desktop programs, even among less tech-savvy users.
I like Windows 8 for the speed (even my fast SSD system was even faster after getting Win 8) and some of the improvements (like file copying) and since I got it while it was on offer, I can't complain at the price.
But I never use the Modern UI part (except for searching) and after the initial curiosity I stopped completely looking for useful apps or even using apps - it's direct to Desktop mode with a Start button for me.
So when I say "bad" I don't mean that it's terrible, like some kind of WinME thing. It's fine enoughish, and I wouldn't go out of my way to get Win7 instead of Win8 (though I have to admit that I was really relieved to get back to the comparative polish of Ubuntu Gnome 13.04, even in beta).
But even if it's not unusably bad, for an OS to be noticeably worse than all the other major OSes out there, including its own previous version, is a notable failure. Yes, Microsoft has a hard task in trying to adopt a legacy OS to a modern style, but that doesn't change the fact that they did a botch job of it in Win8.
This is pretty much how I see it. It's functional, but most of the every day UI changes are a step back from Windows 7. The apps are worthless, gimped versions of their desktop counterparts (Skype comes to mind here). If Microsoft's goal was to show me how they can compete with Apple in that sphere, they failed miserably.
I only paid $15 to upgrade, but I wish I'd stayed with 7.
Windows 8 is great for the under-the-hood stuff, and the Metro UI is great if you're going to live in Metro on a touch-based platform (as a Windows Phone 7 user I love Metro). Where it falls apart is meshing the desktop and Metro. It never really comes together, and if you live in the desktop I'd say the UI feels like a step back from Windows 7. I'd like the Start Screen more if it weren't for the categorised search which requires TAB.
I also miss Aero Glass.
Win-I is faster than Win-C, it takes you straight into settings.
Ah, nice, thank you. Are the keyboard shortcuts documented anywhere?
The last I've seen is this page from the prerelease team blog.
Whoops, forgot that Settings had its own shortcut.
Microsoft has a couple of pages:
New keyboard shortcuts (highlights Windows 8 stuff)
Keyboard shortcuts (shortcuts for everything in Windows)
Thanks, good to see some actual documentation. Not like the brick that came with MS-DOS 4.0, but we can't have everything.
Thanks for all the comprehensive and thoughtful responses. I didn't have enough time with it over the weekend to develop a marinated opinion, so I'm reserving my spittle for later. I have developed a mild dislike for the touch pad's emulation of a proper tablet (phantom reversions to programs from Metro that I don't recall recently accessing, and etc. I also fudge operation of the corner menus semi-frequently), but that's probably more my lack of overall finesse with a new product than some kind of inherent flaw passed down by sadistic Microsoft engineers. For my needs, Windows 8 hasn't offered me any sort of immediate benefit, but it also hasn't mired my ability to work. So I am largely indifferent to the purported improvements. It's a hybrid, really, and I understand the need to cater to the burgeoning tablet market, but I do worry that a further permutation of Windows will become some kind of ill-fitting skeuomorphism of a product that bites traditional users in the ass.
Use powershell. Much like the metro UI it has a steep learning curve, but beats the pants off of every command line I've ever used.
However, using a Surface pro, they REALLY needed to dogfood it without a keyboard and pen. UI elements are all way too small on the display to get any accuracy. To make it usable, you have to use Win+X and tweak the ever loving crap out of it. Font sizes, enabling the full onscreen keyboard other win32 UI elements. It's a default mess. But if you know your way around windows you can fix it up, unlike other tablets. It is windows. It's just windows with windows metro on the side. Just Imagine metro to be a full screen start menu.
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