The Westboro Church plans to picket Newtown, CT shooting victims' funerals

Ha! Goes to show you how many people clicked through to it, I guess. I found the four year old one at the same time, is how that happened. You should read that one too.

Not so much, by they aren't just doing it for the lawsuits is all I meant

No, at best all that can be claimed is that in the past, you were a christian or at least not an atheist. Any declaration of the truth about your present condition is unobtainable, due to the existential nature of the claim. You could appeal to God as an authority but he doesn't seem to be making any announcements about who is or is not a Christian these days.

One group or groups of Christians denouncing another group as un-Christian isn't really a solid argument. Again its an appeal to authority, of which no one group is really recognized as having it. Its a circle jerk of No True Scotsman.

I addressed those points. For example, I said that "To me that seems about as weighty a declaration as one can get outside of epistemology" meaning that outside of the whole well can we really KNOW anything type concerns, this is just about as firm as we can expect with this kind of non-falsifiable question. I then mentioned that unlike NTS this is not one or a few groups claiming their own right to the title, it is every single other group claiming WBC is not accurately described by the title it has claimed.

In summary: re-read the discussion. Thanks.

But oh my god it is the CUTEST:

Paedophagy is not to be applauded.

?

He's stretching a bit to try and make a funny out of "my mommy's tummy."

And really, paedophagy is fantastic when it comes in the form of a perfectly cooked steak and cheese omelet.

paedo = child

phagy = consumption

I made a shitty joke to the effect that the child was literally in her mother's tummy - ie., that she had been eaten, presumably alive - and that this was not a thing to celebrate. And now you're making me explain it and thus removing whatever modicum of humor value it had and fuck you fuck me I am going to bleed all going to bleed no more

also, I forgot to mention that I'm operating on a serious lack of sleep

I must be as well, because I had to read that line a half dozen times before I realized it didn't say "sheep".

But "operating on a serious lack of sheep" is officially SO much better!

Hopefully not too much of a tangent, but I think this perspective highlights a conservative versus liberal tension that exists in many faiths. Specifically, to what extent can human understanding of divinity/the highest purpose in life change over time? If your belief system allows that humanity contains some aspect of the divine, then gradual changes in opinion or understanding of what constitutes an authentic spiritual life may be justified or even necessary. I think such a view is compatible with Unitarian Universalism, and maybe Bahai, although I'm not very familiar with the latter. Even a major faith like Hinduism may not "redefine itself depending on current mass opinion," but I've found it the most difficult contemporary religion to understand because there's such a diversity of beliefs contained under the umbrella. Hindus are the original "Big Tent" party.

Of course, hardcore conservative believers of any stripe -- Jews, Atheists, Flying Spaghetti Monster-ians, or Lakers fans -- object to such reinterpretation on various grounds: 1) truth is unchanging and independent of human preference, 2) the divine is perfect, but humans are not, so disagreement with basic religious principles always reflects error in human judgment, 3) humans can't selectively choose only the doctrines that appeal to them -- committing to all the tenets is a demonstration of faith & discipline. Reasonable people can differ. I'm biased towards liberal faith myself, but my deepest conviction is that the tension between commitment to traditional views and the willingness to reexamine and revise beliefs is the best path; I get fed up with folks with extreme views in either direction.

On point, while I defend the right of the Westboro folks to peacefully demonstrate for their beliefs, I hope to C'thulu that they are ignored by everyone - media, the grieving families, political groups. I feel bad for the funeral-goers, police officers, and even the hotel/restaurant service people that will have to interact with them. My condolences as well to any non-hate-filled people who belong to organizations with the words Westboro, Baptist, or Church in the title.

Totally unrelated to this thread, now when I need a pick-me-up at work, I go to Google to the News search, search for "sleep" and then read the results replacing "sleep" with "sheep".

Hinduism has already redefined itself multiple times.

A seemingly plausible explanation of the Westboro business model that's making the rounds. I say seemingly because I don't think the numbers add up, and it has a hint of one of those "McDonald's Coffee OUTRAGE" narratives; loosely, the argument seems premised on the law that guarantees attorney fees in civil rights cases. It's hard to read thanks to the permissive environment that church finances have in the US, but I find it far more likely that it's just an aggressively tithed institution. The numbers just don't seem sustainable or predictable enough for the lawsuits themselves.

Then again:

I wouldn't be surprised to find that they are being secretly funded by a number of organizations hoping to use Westboro Church as a smokescreen. As long as these nutjobs are out there getting press, there are other people being ignored.

That's certainly possible, I just don't want to advance conspiracy theories absent any evidence. Notoriously far right-run companies like the Hobby Lobby have been erroneously (as far as the public record can show) linked to Westboro in the past, and I can definitely see potential for the outrage to get ahead of the facts.

Note that I'm not saying "conspiracy theory" in anything but a technical sense; it's hardly implausible or paranoid, just unsupported by what I've seen up until now.

H

Holy F-
It's nice to see Nate Phelps appears to be normal after reading the hell he grew up in.

This diagram (linked because it's an enormous image) is kind of interesting and shows how insular and "in the family" the WBC is. Amusingly, one of the married couples is even comprised of cousins.

While it's funny to think of there being cousins married in that church/family, those two are only cousins by marriage, not by blood - the guy's aunt married the girl's brother. Then there is the "brother and sister who got married" but since one of them is adopted non-blood related, well...

Odd? Yes. But not the terrible scandalous things people want them to be.

You're right. I'll have to just settle for their being horrible, maladjusted cretins in every other way.

Yikes.

Cousin and sibling relations aside, that chart is still great and showing that it is less a Church-as-Family than it is a Family-as-Church.

So the "church" is "funded" because they're mostly all lawyers ostensibly practicing actual law (in Topeka).

I could be wrong, but I doubt it's a money-making scheme in the sense of $ stashed in the Caimans. I think they are self-sustaining via lawyers fees, though.

By the way (at least in CA) you can not claim lawyers fees unless you are represented by a lawyer, so non-lawyers who self-represent are not eligible. But lawyers who self-represent are. Grr.

If only god existed. a bloo bloo

Judaism has the best "get-out-of-logic-jail-free" card ever. Thanks for that interesting write up, Elyscape. I guess you have to have thought things through a bit as a religion to last quite so long without looking silly.

The Septuagint translation of the Torah into Greek tried to capture this with EN ARCHE, which I like translated "during the beginning" rather that "in". It expresses the continuance of a period during which something happened rather than connotating "at the beginning" implying this was the point of the start. This is part of where in my view young-earth theologians have already started on the wrong foot, but that's for a separate discussion. ;)

Ancient Hebrew was an extremely expressive and poetic language. It was read aloud because even the written letters did not contain all of the information about the words (cantillation marks, vowels, and other diacritical-type stuff was added only about 1000 years ago). The shape of the letters meant things. The placement of the letters in the alphabet meant things. The letters themselves were basic pictograms for common words (for example, check out this brief Wikipedia article on Aleph, analogous to our letter A, and the richness of meaning it had to numerous ancient cultures; and this just in a simple internet summary!)

You don't have to agree with or believe in ancient religions, but bro there is a real honest richness to ancient languages and you're missing out by dismissing their contribution to meaning and context and use by peoples of those times. Agreeing with beliefs and being fascinated with the cultures that led up to you and as humans today are vastly different topics.

Oh, I agree, these are interesting topics, I just don't see the logic behind some current interpretations of various religions. I mean, the Bible is either the immutable word of god, or, Torah-like, it is mutable. I wish there was authority (or more authority?) behind the mutable position (if there is such) as it might make some Christians cheer the fuck up!

Clearly I'm biased, but this is where Zen Buddhism comes in handy. When asked this question, I think the correct Zen response is "You see a contradiction between these two views? You need to meditate more." And then clap with one hand, or slap your teacher, or something.

I think you're supposed to shoot Buddha with a silver bullet. In the road.

Westboro Baptist Church is a Left-Wing Cult.

THANKS FAUX NEWS!

Are they sourcing "Free Republic"???

WBC is so totally left wing. I mean, remember that time they stood outside protesting the fact that gays can't marry with their "God Loves Fags" sign.

I know, I know, don't read the comments. But this one was just too goddam good.

IF YOUR FAITH IS STRONG ENOUGH ANYTHING CAN BE TRUE! BY THE WAY, I GOT HIGH ONCE WHILE READING MAGE THE ASCENSION AND NEVER RECOVERED!

(Oh, and fuck you Fox Nation for making cutting and pasting your ridiculous shit such a fucking hassle.)

Ugh fuck you foxnews.com you are completely worthles-

WELL HELLO SOFIA VERGARA IN A SWIMSUIT

I AM RECEIVING FEELS