Unwelcome invasions?

I just got invaded for the first time. I was human because I'd just kindled a bonfire to a higher level and was on my way to kindle another one when suddenly I was blocked from leaving the area without understanding why. Then someone came and took all my soft humanity and killed me. :(

Anyway... is there a "proper" form for saying "no thanks" to an invasion? If I allow one of the normal monsters to kill me before the invader gets to me, will that stop the invasion? Or is it considered obligatory to actually take on the invader?

Also, I indicted him after I died. Does that do anything meaningful?

I don't know the answers to your questions, but if I don't feel like dealing with invaders, I disconnect from the internet.

You need to understand that if you're online and you've become human, you are implicitly consenting to be invaded. That's not an unintended consequence - it is an explicit feature of the mechanics of the game world. It's why there's any tension at all in choosing to become human - without the constant risk of invasion, it would be all advantage, and no peril, and what in Dark Souls is so risk free? I've seen a lot of people complaining lately about not wanting to be invaded, but still wanting the benefits of being human, and being able to summon assistance. That just baffles me.

As to your other question, indicting your killer places them in the Book of the Guilty, AKA the kill list for the Darkmoon Blade covenant. Most Dark Wraiths are already in that book multiple - if not dozens - of times, so the effect of one indictment is fairly small, but you at least get the satisfaction of knowing that they will be hunted, as they hunted you.

Generally you get your soft humanity back off your corpse so you only lose humanity in the sense of human status. Unless you mean they used the dark hand thing to drain it?

But yes, turning human is basically signing an implicit contract that you are going to take a risk (the chance of being invaded) in return for gaining access to certain rewards that make the game a lot easier (being able to kindle bonfires for more health potions, being able to summon friendly people for boss fights). I would recommend turning human with the risk of being invaded in mind and to take the appropriate precautions (i.e. don't turn human with a stack of soft humanity that you care about losing and don't wander too far from a bonfire if you are not comfortable you could easily get back to your corpse).

Invasions are a lot easier to deal with than the other 'hard' areas of the game as you have complete control over the window in which they can occur. I think a lot of new players make the mistake of not initially treating them with the same respect and mindset that they would a hard section of the game, instead dropping them unfairly in the mental box labelled 'bullshit' when in fact the system has been very carefully designed to add risk to some of the biggest buffs you can obtain in the game.

Yeah, I think that's what happened. There was some kind of weird animation of them merging into me, or something, and then my number had gone from 3 to 0, and I got nothing back from my corpse.

I'll keep the "being human = implicit invitation to invade" thing in mind. When you explain it as a risk/reward thing, it does seem fair enough. Even though I lost a bunch of points, the bonfire I kindled will stay kindled permanently, so I guess I got something and I lost something.

I guess... like many things in Dark Souls, the bad feelings come less from the misfortune itself and more from the fact that all these things happen with virtually no in-game explanation. I understand they like having an "implicit story" without a bunch of tutorials and hand-holding... but, the result is that if you want to know why virtually anything works the way it does, you have to read masses of spoilers. I hadn't read anything about invasions because I'm basically playing it as a single-player game - I haven't done any summoning - so when it happened I was mentally unprepared. Next time, I'll have some idea what to expect, at least. :)

Where abouts were you and what level? I never got dark wraithed, that sucks. Kind of a special griefer if the did that in a noob zone at a low level.

I think the best thing to do when you get invaded and aren't comfortable fighting off the invader is to just head for the bonfire and fight them there, so you can make an easy recovery of whatever souls and humanity had.

But to answer some specific questions:

Well... kind of. There is an item that invaders can use to end the invasion without actually killing the host or dying themselves, so they do have that option. I've heard of people bailing on the invasion when the host uses the prostration emote, but I don't know how widely recognized that is and I wouldn't necessarily count on J. Random Invader, Esq. honoring it.

There's no etiquette about this, so you are free to do it without ruffling any feathers. However, there's no real advantage to it for the most part; there's not much that an invader can do that's worse than killing you anyway, so you gain nothing from getting killed by an enemy instead. The two exceptions are that invaders can a) trick you into attacking NPCs in your game (so just don't fall for it) and b) steal extra humanity with an item called the Dark Hand. The second thing is easy to avoid because it has a big and distinctive wind-up, but also it's only dangerous if you're carrying around extra soft humanity so just don't do that if you don't have a reason to.

lesslucid, don't feel bad about avoiding invasions if you don't want them. Go offline when you're in human form trying to kindle or summon NPCs. Suicide if someone invades you, or even hit alt-F4 or the power button on your console. The invasion system is flawed in that the matchmaking allows people with uber gear to invade noobs with lousy gear, and that's no fun --worse if they drain your soft humanity. If you're not to that point yet in your time with the game, I don't see any reason why you should have to suffer it.

The Depths, level 53 or thereabouts. Is there some way of finding out which zones are considered "noob zones" and which are more open to PvP?

That's not so bad. The noob zone are pretty much the undead burg and parish. Once your past the first bell and Capra it's safe to say your past that and got your feet wet with most of the mechanics.

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE ADVOCATING PLAYING THE GAME WRONG JAMIE THE DARK SOULS POLICE WILL BE AT YOUR HOME MOMENTARILY FOR RECONDITIONING

A Blade of the Darkmoon home invasion? Sounds about right.

You're also really high level for where you are, just FYI. That may actually get you invaded more often, since darkwraiths invade higher-level players than themselves.

This is a good point. In addition to invading like that you probably won't find a lot of summon signs for co-op.

Here's a jolly co-operation chart for 'normal' levels. Spoiler tagging if you don't want to know of future boss fights and areas.

In non-PvP heavy areas, there are basically two kinds of darkwraiths: SL1, and just under the average level as listed in CP's post. From observing results and using the soul calculator to see what I've killed (what, for science!) it seems like the game orders people roughly in proximity to your level as an invader once the initial P2P grouping has occurred. Thus, while going through levels underleveled but human results in the fewest invasions by far because you are cutting out the at-level invaders, going through over-leveled seems to put you at the end of the queue for invasions, so short of waiting forever in a zone (as hosts who gank are prone to do) it's relatively safe in my experience (in NG+). It's still far from safe, of course, just safer than being at-level range.

Now, the areas where you do want to be concerned, namely Oolacile Township, Anor Londo, and the Kiln (and to a *much* lesser but still present extent the Royal Forest) are going to get progressively greater numbers of invaders as you approach SL120, which is pretty much where most people stop levelling if they are planning on PvP. But those are areas where unless you have someone you are definitely planning on trying to summon it's generally best to stay hollow unless you like invasions.

I've got my finger on the power button, so tell them to COME AT ME.

Anor Londo is one of the busiest invasion freeways in the game - people darken the sky to remove the monsters, and then just hang out and fight all day. It can be a lot of fun if you're into it, and I've whiled away a few hours battling other Dark Wraiths and Darkmoons there.

Absolutely!

Great solution using built in mechanics! Heck, just play offline all the time if that's what you're into!

Eh...

No.

Look, I totally get not wanting to be invaded. Even though the worst thing that can happen is you die -- something that happens all the time in Dark Souls -- there's something characteristically different about having another person kill you that makes it feel worse than dying vs. an AI character, and likewise something more rewarding about killing another player (at least the first few times you do it). However, while Dark Souls' multiplayer system certainly isn't perfect, it's set up as a balance of risks and rewards, and trying to game it so you're only getting the rewards (specifically the ability to summon other PCs, since fire kindling and NPC summoning is available offline) is lame.

I enjoy PVP in Dark Souls. I'm not great at it, and I probably die more often than I successfully kill someone, whether I'm invading or being invaded. I frequently run around areas in human form with the specific intent of being invaded, and I gravitate toward the covenants that give you invasion items. The invasion architecture in the game sucks, though, and better than 80% of the time when you use an invasion item it fails. The game doesn't tell you why, it just says invasion failed. Maybe there were there no players available in the appropriate level range and area in human form, maybe the network architecture just gave up, I really can't say. While the game doesn't provide error messages when people fail to invade you, there's a similar dynamic at work, and it can often take a long time (15+ minutes for me), even in a PVP hot spot. So when the message comes up that I'm actually going to successfully invade someone or am being invaded, that's exciting! It probably took some patience on my part to make that happen, and when I actually spawn as a phantom and then immediately get a message saying the host world is unavailable, it fucking sucks.

See, you're not sticking it to the man when you Alt-F4. You haven't magically uncovered a way to subvert the game's systems. You're not making a 13-year-old ganker cry*. What you're doing is making the game shittier for people who want to PVP, and that sucks. And I totally get that you're not one of those people! I sympathize, really! I generally thought getting invaded sucked during my first playthrough, and every time it happened I died. I chalked it up to experience and moved on, though I did appreciate that the threat of invasion added to the tension of the game (and it still does for me). Dark Souls doesn't even try to explain the invasion system, and while it arguably should, you can say that about a lot of things in the game, and at its core it's a deliberate element of the design, good or bad. Once you understand how it works, though, it's your responsibility to plan accordingly, and you should do it with the mechanics the game provides. If you want to summon other players, accept that the cost of that is the possibility of being invaded. If you don't want to summon but also don't want to get invaded, then play offline.

Or do the suicide thing, that's fine, but don't wait to be invaded, instead do it pre-emptively. Kindle that bonfire and proceed directly to the nearest cliff. You get the benefit you're looking for (more flask usage at the cost of 2-4 humanity), and I'm not going to have my already infrequent PVP experiences truncated in a really boring way.

* OK, you might be doing that sometimes.

Okay, I get that, and thanks for the well thought out post. I generally don't go to the trouble of hard quitting if I get invaded unless I'm just starting in the process of trying to get something done and low on humanity. Most of the time after I'm done kindling or summoning I just assume that I'm going to die, either from a mob or a PC. So I let it ride. But I'm not going to let a wonky design decision that allows for an assured death and loss of a valuable resource (for me, anyway) ruin my fun or stymie my progress in the game.

I'm not griefing PvP'ers by luring them into a match and then LOLQUIT. There needs to be a PvP flag that's just for PvP. Not PvP and kinding and summoning PC/NPC help. Just PvP, because it's different than all those things.So unhallowing is not the same as a PvP flag.

There doesn't need to be, because PvP is not entirely an opt-in thing. It's part of the price you pay for the other things that being human allows you to do. Look, most things in the game cost souls, right? You want to use that Zweihander, it costs souls. You want to upgrade it, that costs more souls. Want to buy the materials instead of farming them? Souls. Want to cast Crystal Magic Weapon on it? Tons more souls. You spend souls to get almost everything you want in this game. But if you want to kindle a bonfire or summon help for a boss, you only might have to pay souls; the price for these things is gambling with your souls instead of spending them outright. Also, you can choose how many souls to risk with no change whatsoever in the reward you get. So to purchase a kindled bonfire or a helpful phantom, you can name your own price and you sometimes even get to keep your souls. That sounds like it's actually a much less painful transaction than the rest of the things in the game to me.

You mean, things like:

Summoning Failed.
Summoning Failed.
Summoning Failed.
The Dark Spirit of Douchebag 426 has Invaded!

?

:)

I love the concept (especially when it actually works!), hate the execution (cheats, automatic/build-in inequality, connection issues). Come to think of it, shouldn't invasions happen only AFTER you defeat a boss? That'd make a whole lot more sense.

Why? They'd almost not happen at all in that case; once you beat a boss you no longer have the option to summon friendly phantoms or really much of an incentive to kindle bonfires in the area.

Bonfires are a boon for any extra exploration you might want to find; I kindle whatever makes sense for the area. True about friendly summons.

As to the other point ... well. Good? :P "OMG YOU CAN NO LONGER ENGAGE IN NON-CONSENSUAL PVP! HOLY SHIT!"

If it worked the other way around (than now), you'd do that before going through that fog gate. It would actually encourage exploration rather than rushing to the boss. You want to stick around that's optional. Defeating a boss isn't.

Your suggestion is not a good one. The only really substantive problem is that the connections are unreliable and that humanity feels terrifyingly constrained at first (and in fact, it was up until a few patches in), when they should let you in earlier on how it's just like souls and everything else. Currency you pay and sometimes gamble with, not a treasure that you hoard.

Now, beyond that I would say that in the next game more areas need to be better thought out in terms of how they constrain you for the purposes of summoning and invading, and the margins of zones need to be thought out better if they are going to ask you to linger in between multiplayer activations. More things should be as unobtrusive as the hunter covenant in terms of how you fit them into your experience, and fewer like the gravelord covenant in terms of having to jack up your whole game in order to get something that no one is going to use. But moving it into post-boss territory defeats the symmetry of summon access and invasion risk that works so well, and risks creating more of a true mmorpg experience as people endlessly maraud around their games with all of their bros.

The best advice I can give you is that once you've done some invading your notion of what constitutes progress in the game gets revised one more time, just like it did when you first got used to the idea of losing souls every now and then in PvE. Now I totally understand if you just don't want to and that's that, but you're not giving yourself the opportunity to understand the game's design in context, so the claims you make for what would fix the game are correspondingly shortsighted. As you can see when veteran players still cling to that mentality, it's something you have to seek out and correct by doing unto others and realizing losing's not a big deal and it's a very different and special kind of fun relative to refining ai workarounds.

You don't have to be the stereotypical hacker/OP invader in the low level zone, no matter how much people blow that out of proportion as the main presence in PvP. There's a lot of thematic and creative stuff you can do without trying to demand an unrealistic standard of honor in an inherently unstable environment. It's the cutting edge of the gameplay, and it's really cool stuff.

Why? :)

I disagree.

Long time ago when I was a wee lad, I ran a race against some other local lads. It was a good race, as we were all fairly well matched. I lost, but it was a good run.

A bit later, after I've been working out a bit, I ran that race again. I beat them all handily, and felt pretty proud. Then I talked to my dad, and he said "Well, they weren't as good as you, since you've been working out. Where's the pride in that?" and I felt he had a pretty good point. From then on, I sought out better matches.

Every single PvP fight against me (and I feel that of several other people in this discussion who feel they have a grievance to air) is that kind of fight. These people are coming into the game of someone who quite often doesn't give a shit about PvP and is only human to do something *completely unrelated* in their PvE game; by virtue of their arrival they are in fact immediately superior - they probably have a PvP build, have practiced often, and quite possibly have an edge that I, by doing my own PvE thing, do not.

So in effect, in order to move their PvE game forward, they have to consent to die. I utterly fail to understand how that's useful to anyone.

There is *nothing* like this in the game otherwise. Dudes ambushing you around the corner? Go slowly, listen for audio clues, keep your shield up. Boss has an unexpected attack? Keep your distance, keep your shield up, analyze and learn - just reading our DS threads you can tell people can learn this over the course of a single battle quite frequently. Geography getting you killed? Again, go slow, watch your footing, pay attention to enemies that can shove you.

Someone invades you in PvP? Well.

Change your build entirely.
Change out your weapon since heavy probably won't cut it. Learn your new weapon's moves *precisely*, because odds are your opponent has.
Armor, ditto.
Spend weeks training and learning about cancellation/invulnerability frames, backstab exploits, armor and shield resistances, special covenant rules and gear, and so on, and so forth. Unlike everything else in Dark Souls, PvP is Just. Not. Fair. It dumps a fuckload more variables than any other situation, and every situation is potentially different.

I stand by my post-boss suggestion - it'll leave PvP to those who want it and seek a real challenge/fight. But if I can't have that...

What I'd really like to see is some sort of player ranking, where those who consistently win simply can't invade those who say, have never won or have very rarely engaged in PvP. That'd cull a lot of the crap; I know I can't ask for miracles and hope that hacks are eliminated. Also, remove backstabs and parrying; the latency inherent in a game like this only compounds the invader/invadee inequality.

A little more ambitious, I'd love to see something like what The Crossing tried to do before it was canned. Some way to have sections of the game inherently tied to PvP from people who are going through the same area. Of course, this was a game where there were no levels nor gearing up weapons, but if GW2 can do level-matching, then I'd suspect so could DS. I think that'd be rad - a whole area where you basically were matched to the players in the same area - but once you got past it that'd be IT.

I ... just don't see why these two are related. I summon when I'm beating my head against the wall because the challenge is *already* too much. Why in the name of fuck should the ability to get help for an insurmountable task be tied to adding another insurmountable task? Or at least a mandatory death before I get a *possibility* of reprieve from being stuck?

Once again, the main problem I have with this is the inherent inequality; this comes from *way* too many invasions from cheaters or exploiters around the Undead church and Parish where I basically had zero chance to do anything. I've had plenty more invasions that I stood for and fought when it seemed appropriate (honestly, pretty much anywhere outside the Parish and church).

Alt F4'ing (as appropriate) and proud!

You know what. In the interest of honest reporting, I'm going to run a new character through and try to stay human all the time, as humanity permits. I shall report results.

Heavy weapons work fine in PvP, you just need to be smart about using them. Don't swing out wildly, because your attacks are easy to punish. Parry, backstab, or hit them while they're trying to cast/use an item/whatever. You can do tons of damage; you just need to make sure you're careful where you try to go on the offensive. Supplement with magic, pyromancy, or lighter weapons for an additional source of damage, in order to create those opportunities.

Parries and backstabs work fine unless you're getting terrible latency. Dark Souls 2 is doing the one thing that needs to be done there - proper multiplayer servers. Don't want to be backstabbed? Then watch your back. Don't want to be parried? Then be careful about when and how you attack.

I started out dying to most invasions, too. So I developed my playstyle to compensate for that threat; less wild swinging and reliance on poise, more focus on careful dodges and fishing for backstab opportunities. Oh, and controlling the battle venue; if I can get the invader in a narrow hallway and cast Dark Bead at close range, I pretty much win.

You can get to passable, "not-dying-automatically" PvP ability in a night. You have the advantage, as the host; you can summon help, you can heal much more easily, and you know exactly where the invader is going to be coming from. You're at a higher level, in most cases. The weak link is your own ability and equipment; the latter is a problem early on, but mellows once you hit Anor Londo. Which leaves the former.

You can't ignore PVP. You can't ignore Black Knights or the Large Club fatsos or that asshole Titanite Demon in the Lost Izalith shortcut bridge or whatever either; invaders are just another factor to consider.

Attempt one, depths.

Tried invading 6 times in the church. No hits - I can see why this might be frustrating to PvPers, to not be able to get their jollies in. Tough!

I head into the Depths (I'm SL25 so the church *is* a bit low I suppose). I get a hit right away. He has: DAT robes. Bigass fireball (I can't gauge which one, but it's big). He rolls through both of my soul arrows fired at ~15 yards. Takes 4 damage from my +3 spear. Has Queelag's Fury Sword. Yeah, this is a great match-up.

I run around a bit trying to get to the Capra demon and invade when I can. Still no hits. I finally get one, then promptly get mauled by all the dogs in the Burg. Woops. Failed to create session.

I get bored of waiting around and try the goat. I'm beginning to see the PvPer frustration, if that's what it's like for others. Unfortunately, that's *their* problem and not mine as a PvE person. :P

Oooh, a hit! Invaaaaaaaaaade!

That was actually kinda fun. He has lightning spears which is a bit surprising at this level, and a buttload of stamina - he can swing his longsword seemingly forever (or at least it feels like it) and is wearing a knight set of armor, not sure which. He fights off 3 dogs and all the assassins as I try to take potshots at him, but pretty much survives. I take a few lag hits (I get hit and staggered even though I'm ~4yds away) but he takes the right amount of damage from me and I from him, so I'm guessing this is legit lag. We trade some blows, he heals a couple of times (which I can't do, but then again I didn't have to fight the NPCs) and eventually gets in one more hit than I do in an exchange. He bows as I fade out.

So based on so far, PvP is at 50%. Not a passing grade. :P

Point by point:

Heavy weapons - only time I've seen it work is against other heavy weapons. Most experienced PvPers don't use those because speed - again, if I hit people who are playing well, legit :P, this isn't a problem.

I disagree about parries and backstabs. I guess you haven't seen the rampant backstab exploitation, and if you haven't, congrats. Once you get stung, it kinda lasts.

I was never a wild swinger - it doesn't do any good if they just have all the gear in the world. You speak of Dark Bead - I'm talking about early game stuff (mostly Burg and Parish, which is where most of my invasions happen) where you get invaded by people wearing endgame gear.

Host advantage - nope, can't summon. Not only does it fail, there's simply no time. Heal more easily - true. Know exactly where they're coming from - nope. I had someone spawn in on me literally in my face. Other people talk of invaders camping at the same spot as the infamous Londo Archers. Not sure how you're supposed to "know" where they are.

Higher level in most cases - I doubt this is true; in addition, it's fairly meaningless what with gear and no real player ranking.

Last point: you mostly CAN ignore Black Knights. You CAN ignore the Titanite Demon. You CAN choose to not farm the large club, although I'm not sure why you're singling out the fatsoes - you also CAN ignore the boulder throwing ones by Queelag's lair. You canNOT avoid PvP if you just want help on a tough problem. I don't really understand why that is the case, and nothing I've heard so far is convincing. :)

Oh boo, I can only invade once. How do I get more of these cracked orb thingies?

I probably ended up with about a 60/40 record against human invaders on my first playthrough when I was fumbling around and had little clue what I was doing. I think you are overstating the 'everyone is a cheater/exploiter case'. On average I found them to be harder than the standard monsters in a zone but not as bad as facing half of the bosses for the first time. I'm another person who would normally completely opt out of PvP if it wasn't carefully integrated into the game so I'm glad they did because having it there provided some great tense moments in my first playthrough and some of the sweetest victories.

Some of my invaders had fancy gear or spells I'd never seen before but, the key to invaders & a large part of the joy of Dark Souls PvP, is that fundamentally everyone is playing by the same set of rules. Spells always take time to cast, you need line of sight to hit someone with an arrow and a long weapon can hit you from further away than a short one. Yes there are some 'unfair' invasions in gear terms at the start of the game where the potential for gear disparity is at it's widest but once you are into the swing of upgrading which happens fairly swiftly gear starts to matter a lot less than skill. Plus for the few players who do choose to invade in the burg with the intent of just back stabbing a guy with a racked shield there are ways of making the experience just as tedious for them as it may be for you; run, hide. Climb to the top of a ladder. that's what I did the first time I was invaded and had no idea how it worked, the player eventually just seemed to get bored running around after me and abandoned the invasion which felt like a kind of victory as well.

However, I remember the real PvP victories as some of my favourite Dark Souls experiences because they are rarer, sweeter (each victory against an invader is by design a David vs Goliath match up) and in some ways fairer.

I recall the lady with twin daggers trying to back stab (and probably parry) me in the depths when I had no idea how to do back stabs or parries reliably myself but I knew enough that if kept some distance between us those little daggers won't going to reach. Patiently, I backed away and turned occasionally bouncing her blows off my shield. I'm guessing she was getting frustrated that I wasn't dying as quickly to a smooth back stab as some others because her moves got a bit more sloppy with some careless rolls trying to close the distance and get behind. Well my Halberd at the time had a fast R1 and it was ready to lock on and punish someone just standing up from a roll. Two sloppy rolls and her health was dangerously low while I was still at full, the fight changed she was warier looking to back off and heal but the depths is a poor location for slipping away and I pressured her toward a narrow corridor and then pounced again when she started to turn. Victory.

I remember another battle against a much more advanced PvPer in Anor Londo. He had some kind of fire weapon and shield combo at first and seemed intent on primarily trying to overmatch me through pushing elemental damage through my shield block. I guess the balder shield's 60% fire reduction was too slow for him plus I was getting in the occasional return hit via poise so he switched up tactics backing off which gave me a chance to heal up. He started doing some kind of magic and some kind of orbs appeared around his head. Guessing correctly that they were bad news I dodged behind a pillar and quick switched to my crest shield, that at the time was a constant in my build a couple of the orbs hit the pillar and I ate two on the crest shield. I guess he had expected more damage as he was closing again with his melee weapon drawn. I had range on him with the black knight halberd so I struck as he ran in and connected with a good hit. he struck through it but I still had plenty of health while his was now much diminished. He backed off and I did the same wanting an opportunity to switch back to my balder shield, I did so and then saw him prepping another one of those orb spells. This time I was more familiar with the setup time so I figured why not try my bow, normally arrows are easy for players to dodge so they don't get much play in PVP but perhaps he would be distracted, the bow was out in a flash and fired before the first orb had left the top of his head. He failed to see what I was doing in time and ate the arrow. Victory.

Despite your last paragraph you can avoid PvP just as you can avoid almost everything in the game as you yourself acknowledge with the 'if'. Dark Souls is a game constantly balancing risks with rewards. Good gear is always gated behind some tricky puzzle encounter, a tough enemy, careful encounter placement, traps, jumping puzzles and so on you can avoid it IF you don't want that good gear. Kindling a bonfire is one of the biggest buffs in the game and summoning other players and even an NPC is often a huge buff in winning a boss fight so if they are going to fit into the game's design they need an attached risk and that risk is invading. Nothing about invading would work if it was toggleable in a menu or tucked away in a place where it could be easily avoided. You wouldn't get the risk and you wouldn't get the satisfaction of staring that risk right in it's goddamn villainous eyes, spitting in it's face and defying the odds.

Plus, the other side of Dark Souls' tough love is that it also has a sense of fairness. It knows when its throwing something tough at you and it will cut you a break even if you fail. For example, that first descent into Blight Town can feel like like the most malicious design in the world. Death of various hues coming from all directions and coming at you in the dark. At least it feels that way until you manage to nail the first of those blow dart snipers to the wall and discover that they don't respawn on ressurection. The designers are giving you a break and a way to mark some progress in that palace of murder. Likewise with invasions. Once you've had one - win or lose, you are free for at least the next ten minutes to go about your kindling or boss fight summoning in peace

Darkstalker Kaathe for 3,000 souls. Like everything in Dark Souls it's never easy and there is a cost.

Backstabs are a useful tool, so of course people are going to exploit them - but they have real limitations, and a good defensive game can keep the foe from getting that in. Honestly, I suggest you start trying to fish for backstabs yourself; it gives you a good idea of just what works to deal with it and what doesn't. Best way to understand the limitations of any strategy is to experience them firsthand.

And heavy weapons absolutely work; they just require you to play more defensively. Each hit does more damage, but is also a bigger commitment. I should know that; I use a Man-serpent Greatsword! If you're using a STR build, rely on backstabs and parries for your main sources of damage. Don't go into one of those wide swings unless you're certain that it's going to make contact, because a whiff drains a ton of stamina and is pretty much guaranteed to get you a BACKSTABBU. Play conservatively and opportunistically.

Undead Burg/Parish invaders with late to endgame gear are definitely problematic. I recall my cleric getting invaded by some guy with Giant's set and Quelagg's Furysword, and that sucks; you're not going to be capable of managing these foes until your own options open up. Swinging that unupgraded scimitar or what have you around isn't much help; stall the shit out of them. Make it a boring fight and hope they'll decide they've better things to do. Or, yeah, just alt-F4 when you see that lightning zweihander +5 or whatever, because at that point they're clearly just trying to gank some newbies for shits and giggles, and ruining their time is no problem. But there's a difference between quitting out on the guy who shows up with gear you can't touch and quitting out on the guy who just got the first three CRE orbs and is around your range in terms of equipment.

This is a small problem, and it does not detract from the merits of the PVP mechanics; it just means that gear needs to be factored into the matchmaking somehow.

I was pondering this as well, combining soul level with some kind of inventory visible 'gear score' to determine the potential invasion range.

The problem of course is that with the current design unchanged it would just lead to a lot more failures with invading as, with each variable you add, you cut down the available matches. Plus it would cut out some quirky but fun edge cases like LK invading a newbies game and gifting them some artefact from later in the game. Maybe invading needs to work over a much broader area, say - any area in the game you've cleared, to provide a variable that increases the potential matchups as well. Plus they could introduce some kind of covenant where you can invade other peoples games, but only to be helpful (i.e. no PvPing but PvEing and dropping gear is allowed). Sort of like a non consensual version of summoning but perhaps with a time limit (as well as the humanity requirement) to prevent it overwhelming the whole game.

Yeah, but all of this is talking about one death each time you do something that opens you up to PvP. At most. Remember what we always say when people are nervous about starting Dark Souls: that death isn't a fail state, it's just part of the game? Deaths to invaders aren't any different.

I just don't understand why you don't think there should be a price for kindling bonfires and summoning help. Let's just say you definitely get invaded at every possible opportunity, lose one hundred percent of the time, and never manage to recover your souls; the worst possible scenario for someone who dislikes PvP, in other words. Ok, so you know that you have the option to kindle a bonfire and summon help, and that the price of that is that every ten minutes you'll go hollow again and lose whatever souls and soft humanity you happen to have on you. That's the deal. If you don't want to pay that price, you don't get to do those things, just like everything else in the game that has a cost associated with it.

But even then--even in the least favorable circumstances possible--you're still in control of how much you pay, which is a situation far more advantageous to you than any other thing you buy in this game. You never have to lose more souls than it would cost you to gain just one level, for instance, and if you buy some upgrade materials in advance you'll lose far less. And you never have to lose more humanity than the one you spend to turn human in the first place. So for all the hand-wringing about all the things you'd have to do to start winning invasions, you really have to do very little to reduce the pain of losing them to almost nothing.

Also worth noting that in the situation where most players get invaded (prepping to summon help for a boss) reducing your soul and humanity carry to the bare minimum happens to be a good strategy anyway. As making attempts on a tough boss can easily lead to repeated deaths in a boss room where it can be more difficult that normal to regain your corpse. I would guess that in most (but not all) invasion occurrences, at least once you are aware of the general game mechanics, players are already making the broadly sensible resource strategy decisions with souls and humanity, that make sense for invasions, as part of their normal boss attempt preparation routine.